Time To Flush & CleanUp FWS??

[NetCafe]

FWS is a kewl place to trade and hunt but recently I've seen a good number of kiddie hosts offering ridiculous plans like

600gb Bandwidth for us$10 or below, 2T of bandwidth for $6.99

C'mon I say, lets be honest, RTG is a medium sized host and we honestly cannot even afford to offer our plans at that ridiculous price as stated above without cutting into our pockets.

Maybe once in a blue moon just for the sake of closing a deal and in spite, we might offer something at costs, but to prolong offering such ridiculous plans would eventually bring our own downfall.

As per someone else's posting in another thread, should Peo and his moderators also set some form of guideline on such FLY-BY-NIGHT kiddie hosts to safeguard the interest of fellwo hosts and clients?

Your take?

[Todd]

I think the issue comes down to where do you draw the line? Many years ago I thought hosting companies were overselling by huge amounts. Huge decreases in hardware prices for disk storage for example, made many of their plans reasonable now. Cheaper bandwidth providers like Cogent came about, and they could afford to give away more and more.

Just the same I'm against extreme overselling just as I'm against unlimited bandwidth / storage type of hosts. At some point it just becomes unreasonable, and those with experience spot it a mile away.

However, I think the second you try to define hard standards for what is and isn't acceptable you'll have a very hard time. Just my two cents.

[NetCafe]

I wouldnt propose hard limts but as per your saying, its very easy to spot someone grossly over-seliing a mile away.

In my example, I noted 600gb at $6.99, which is ridiculous no mater cogent or what.

Maybe a soft rule that allows "safe" overselling but no extreme?

[Jan]

Those offering the world for little will be gone soon enough, the more reasonable hosts will out survive many "fly-by-night" hosts. Provide a good service and you will be the winner :)

[monaghan]

I'd agree with Jan here, most people looking for the cheapest option will still get burned by those offer for a penny above what the rules allow.

How do you define "safe" overselling ? Any overselling's a calculated risk. You either sell a sensible sized package for a sustainable price (as we do) or you oversell and hope that they use a sensible amount.

Customer education is the key, however whilst customers want everything for free or absolute minimum, I guess if you ban the kiddie hosts here, they'll just open a new forum and still target the same uneducated customer.

[NetCafe]

I agree with both of you but I was looking at this matter in the interest of the client-to-be. not all client are learned and experienced.

So I though maybe a little control by FWS would help them in getting their money's worth instead of finding it out the hard way.

[Jan]

As Monaghan said, if they can't find it here, they will just go elsewhere. Whilst there are hosts offering ludicrous amounts of space and bandwidth for a small price, people will go looking for them. We have enough to monitor without having to be the bandwidth police too.

[Tree]

Yep. It's like card counting in BlackJack. There's a good chance that you'll win, but not everytime. Eventually these 'fly-by-night' hosts will be burned. But there's always a new crop ready to take their place.

[tumble]

I happend to read these post i think it was last night. And for some reason i could not get it out of my mind.

Is it possiable that these "kid" host are unable to deliver what they claim?
i am no expert so i will not even bother to answer that question.

If it is not possiable for these host to deliver what they claim,
then does it become more of a false advertising issue or even downright fraud?

If it is a case of false advertising or fraud.
Does not "FWS" (being the expert as i see it) at least offer some sort of protection (ie policeing aginst such host offers) against this type of behavior?

Since as was well stated above the would be clients are the ones that are harmed thru out this entire process.

But not only are the clients at harm.

But so are the legit providers (thru loss of bussines). These legit providers are the source of much information (knowledge) that seems to flow thru the posting here at FWS.

It would seem tha policing this issue is a "Win-Win" situation that benifites not only present clients but future clients as well as the providers that presently access FWS.

As always this is just my 2 cents.

[monaghan]

Given that FWS is all about FREE and these paid hosts are simply advertising to an audience generally looking for free, then I can't see many people wanting to invest in a verification process for paid hosts :)

If you were going to police it, you'd need to draw up a solid legally proven framework, then pay people to validate each & every offer against the framework, you'd also need a legal fund to fight the cases when you got it wrong.

How would you define this framework ? I'm UK based and operate as a Ltd company and therefore have different legal overheads to other types of company in the UK let alone in other countries.

In the UK, I could legally set myself up as self employed, run a server from my bedroom and sell accounts at £1 a go, how would you know or prove this was OK or not ? How would you know if my house insurance even covered me for running a business at home, whether I was a teenage kid or a mature adult ?

Other countries may have different regulations or laws concerning business operation, how would you cater for this ?

Whilst it's a good idea, I don't see that the members here would be prepared to stump up the fees to fund it. Even if it was done, then the overselling kiddes would only go somewhere else where they didn't have regulations.

The bottom line issue is the fact that far too many people have no idea about technology and what it takes to run a company. If it's cheaper from company B, then company A looses the sale, it's only as they learn by getting ripped off that realise how little they know.

When you point these things out to people, then you're seen as a troublemaker :)

[utcrazy]

I happend to read these post i think it was last night. And for some reason i could not get it out of my mind.

Is it possiable that these "kid" host are unable to deliver what they claim?
i am no expert so i will not even bother to answer that question.

If it is not possiable for these host to deliver what they claim,
then does it become more of a false advertising issue or even downright fraud?

If it is a case of false advertising or fraud.
Does not "FWS" (being the expert as i see it) at least offer some sort of protection (ie policeing aginst such host offers) against this type of behavior?

Since as was well stated above the would be clients are the ones that are harmed thru out this entire process.

But not only are the clients at harm.

But so are the legit providers (thru loss of bussines). These legit providers are the source of much information (knowledge) that seems to flow thru the posting here at FWS.

It would seem tha policing this issue is a "Win-Win" situation that benifites not only present clients but future clients as well as the providers that presently access FWS.

As always this is just my 2 cents.

Until all control panels strictly disallow overselling at all (having an 80GB disk, but have 80 clients with 100GB disk quotas) then there is always going to be this problem. The kiddie hosts cant technically provide it, but they can offer it, until the person starts actually using the space.

[James]

Whilst what monaghan suggests/comments is true and ideal, it's not possible here at FWS, nor even at WHT. In fact, anywhere.

Simple fact being that the large majority here are "inexperienced" or "kiddie" hosts. This is reflected across the whole industry.


In the UK, I could legally set myself up as self employed, run a server from my bedroom and sell accounts at £1 a go, how would you know or prove this was OK or not ? How would you know if my house insurance even covered me for running a business at home, whether I was a teenage kid or a mature adult ?

I'm setup as self-employed in UK, and all servers i lease are worked on through my home laptop. Does those facts reflect on the service and my experience? No.

The hosting industry is a tricky one. You can't police it.

You can't bring kiddie hosts to court. How? The fact is not everybody who trades on EBay are registered businessmen are they? It's what hosting has become. Hostbay. Heck, people sell hosting on EBay.

At the end of the day, it's about you and the people who use your service with trust..

[tumble]

Just a shame though to watch folk throw thier money away. And honest bussiness men/women get the Shaft.

I am just guessing that thier exsit a cycle were as all of a sudden alot of new host arrive at FWS and offer awesome hosting packages at dirt low prices.

Maybe when they get out of school for summer and have some time on thier hands.

At least i did notice the sticki on unlimited type offerings. I thought that was pretty cool and at the time i am sure it offered some sort of protection for FWS visitors.

And i did notice some stickies concerning some good ground rules for folks looking for providers. I wonder if anyone reads those things?

Best of luck to you legit providers

tumble

[Jan]

Maybe when they get out of school for summer and have some time on thier hands.
Yes there will be a huge influx as in previous years.

And i did notice some stickies concerning some good ground rules for folks looking for providers. I wonder if anyone reads those things?
Rarely ;)

[Paul]

And the sad thing is that people pay a year in advanced for kiddy hosting not knowing they will go bust, It may also happen with other hosts. It also depends on the teenager if in the case if they are running a hosting business.

The saying "a busy person is more likely to get the job done"

This may be true in the hosting sector as it depends on the kid that is running the business. I just find time to work with my webhost but I manage and if I didnt manage I would sell it off. I do the best I can and im sure that I am consered as a "Kiddy Host"

Common sence and Initiative is needed in webhosting. What common sence is used with offering 100gb of space and 500gb of bandwidth. Are they expeting that people in their right mind will not beable to use all this space. Well it doesnt come down to this because If everybody signing up to this uses their specifications that they intitled with their purchase. It is shut up shop and thats the end with that website and to all the people with websites.

Their is no way to prevent this from happening but I think people need to know of a few things before signing up with webhosting. At the end of the day it is the buyers responsibilty for the actions they took with buying webhosting.

And buyers should use their common sence aswell!

[HostFrog]

As far as this goes, kiddie hosts and oversold providers will NEVER leave the industry. They are like wasps in the spring time, flies at a picnic, and cold days in winter. Like Jan has said provide good service and at the end of the day focus on your business, and your operations. Consumers are all looking for the best deals, and there is no way around getting them to come to you or your service over the lower priced "providers". They will soon learn a very valuable lesson regarding pricing structure, service and support that comes hand in hand with a cheap solution for their webpresence. Any senseable businessman, or individual that looks to reliability, outstanding service and support will look for these traits in providers aswell. Not to say that even high cost providers will offer better service and support then an oversold company. However, facts and figures do not lie, and the novice consumer will soon come to realise that you get what you pay for....don't base choices on mere pricing levels, and also do your research!

[hottweelz]

Shoot! Hostbay.com was taken :( Thought James had a winner there.

I've said this before and I say it again.

It's OUR Fault

We offer reseller accounts, we allow overselling, we don't "babysit" the "kiddyhosts."

Only ones to blame are the higher-ups who allow it.

Ridicule me if you like, but I believe it.

[Tree]

Jeez Hottweelz. You suck. [/ridiculing]

Seriously, it is the host's fault. Well, half the parent's fault as well. But! If there were no 'kiddy' hosts, the reseller market would essentially be dead...

[heymrdj]

Shoot! Hostbay.com was taken :( Thought James had a winner there.

I've said this before and I say it again.

It's OUR Fault

We offer reseller accounts, we allow overselling, we don't "babysit" the "kiddyhosts."

Only ones to blame are the higher-ups who allow it.

Ridicule me if you like, but I believe it.

hehe you make a point. But I don't allow overselling. period.

[NetCafe]

As Monaghan said, if they can't find it here, they will just go elsewhere. Whilst there are hosts offering ludicrous amounts of space and bandwidth for a small price, people will go looking for them. We have enough to monitor without having to be the bandwidth police too.

I think if you spend less time monitoring monkeys like us :P , you will have time to monitor kiddie hosts. :classic2:

[NetCafe]

Ok, lets discuss what may be termed over-selling?

My take is that bandwidth should not cost less than $0.05 a gig, your take?

[ardnat]

yea!!!

[Tree]

Way to hit the 6 character limit with exclamation points...

[Bruce]

My take is that bandwidth should not cost less than $0.05 a gig, your take? 5 cents? Let's make it 50, or better yet, 75 cents. That's what I'm still paying...

That would clean up the forums quite nicely. :p




No of course we're not going to enforce something like this. It would take to much time an effort. People will always be making ludicrous requests, and there will always be someone willing to offer it. If it takes their host closing up shop or their site going down for long periods of time to open up their eyes, then so be it.

[ingfina]

My take is that bandwidth should not cost less than $0.05 a gig, your take?
That is extreme overselling. Not worth the money.

[Tree]

Maybe NetCafe is talking about bandwidth to the DC?

I sell mine at $0.10/gig or so.

[Dini]

If you take a look on eBay, you'll find hundreds of Unlimited Offers, even for resellers at extreamly low prices (2 bucks, 5 bucks, etc..).

Those are not kiddie hosts, most of them are serius companies.. so the problem is not only with kids, but with SCAMMERS

[ingfina]

Maybe NetCafe is talking about bandwidth to the DC?
Yeah, that's most likely the case. DCs are overselling when they provide you a server with 2000GB for $59. Get to that limit with 3 servers and they won't sell you another server....


I sell mine at $0.10/gig or so.
Wow thats still extremely cheap. We usually don't go below $0.30, but we have a special comming up wth about $0.10.

[NetCafe]

That is extreme overselling. Not worth the money.

Overselling? We are no where near that mark yet. We get bandwidth in bulk of 100mbps.