Abortion - right or wrong?

[meow]

Originally posted by rshinji
I think you guys are going about this the wrong way.

I am personally against bullfighting. However, when you try to tell an entire nation that their national pastime is cruel and bad then you are asking for trouble.

I think we should leave the spanish people alone. Come on who wants to be told that what they love watching is wrong.

Even if you did not explicitly say that the spanish people are bad. Bullfighting is part of what they are.

If you really want to make this world a better place then train your guns against abortion. That is the ultimate crime against humanity.
rshinji, you just called something we in my country think is a woman's right the ultimate crime. You really shouldn't pass judgement on another nations ethic like that. :D

[kojiro]

whatever.

What I dont get is that some people pity animals more than human beings.

Aren't we suppose to protect the helpless? meow are you pro-abortion?


I believe an unborn should have rights as much as anybody. Why deprive a child the wonders that we call life?


Isn't George Bush against abortion?

[Jan]

Originally posted by rshinji
I believe an unborn should have rights as much as anybody. Why deprive a child the wonders that we call life?

And you eat eggs with chickens in them?????? :confused2

[meow]

It hasn't been an issue here since the 60's rshinji.

Know what? I think it's perfectly OK that you have oppinions on this. ;)

[Akalon]

Originally posted by rshinji
I believe an unborn should have rights as much as anybody. Why deprive a child the wonders that we call life?

If people want an abortion then it is obvious the child isn't wanted. How is this child meant to live a happy life when it is neglected and mistreated?

When abortions take place I dont even think you can call the unborn a baby/child as it has still not formed. Are you going to go as far as saying that the use of contraception is wrong because it is depriving a child from the world?

[Peo]

This new thread comes from a split with the bullfighting thread by +chips. Please don't bring any bullfighting discussions into this thread. This thread is about abortion.

[kojiro]

Contraception is different. It is preventing pregnancy.

Abortion is ending it.


I will repeat. Aren't we suppose to defend who can't defend themselves.


Have you guys seen an aborted fetus?

[Giancarlo]

I don't believe abortion should be illegal, but that is my opinion. I believe in adoption. If the life cannot be taken care of by the parents I believe there would be somebody out there that could take of it. Because on either side whether it is not a life in the fetus stage, it will eventually be based on my opponent's argument though that does not mean abortion should be allowed.

Bulls are not babies BTW, so I see why Peo seperated this from the bullfighting thread.

[meow]

Lets drop this thread. We have already had abortion threads. It was brought up only in comparison to the bull thing.

[Webdude]

Originally posted by Akalon
When abortions take place I dont even think you can call the unborn a baby/child as it has still not formed.

What is it then? A cow?? You know that arguement is dead. There are a LOT of people out there who cant have a child and are waiting for one to come up in adoption....except you have a bunch of women who think it's ok to "screw & kill". I'm sorry...but in my mind, if a woman kills my child, then I should have the right to make it even.

No, it's not women's bodies we are talking about. These women want the right to be careless and then murder in cold blood when they do so. It's as simple as this...if you dont want a baby, dont be a ----. Rape is one thing, so is survival of the woman...but abortion as birth control?? That is all it is. All the excuses that the women's movement gives for abortion accounts for only 1% of actual abortions done. However, even the women's groups agree abortion is wrong for birth control. The other 99% of actual abortions done are because the women dont take precautions.

In the end, they just want the right to be irresponsible with new life. If you believe in abortion as birth control, then you should very well believe that mrs whatsherface down here in Houston should get off pure and free for drowning her kids in the bathtub one by one. What's the difference if you kill them in your stomach, or you kill them when they are 5?? You made the decision as to whether or not you wanted a baby when you dropped your pant. And dont give me the "accident" exuse. I'd love to be there to hear the story "Well Dad, my pants accidently fell off and his thing accidently fell into me"

[anhedonia]

Originally posted by Peo
This new thread comes from a split with the bullfighting thread by +chips.

Go me! :D

***

Anyway, this is how I look at abortion. Think of it this way:

If you purposely press a knife blade against your skin, and then realise, "Oh, no, I'm bleeding, I've been cut", who do you blame? Of course, you realise it's your own fault for pressing the knife against your skin.
Pressing the blade is the action; bleeding is the consequence.
You knew, very well, as you pressed the blade to your skin that you might get cut and bleed. But you did it anyway.

Therefore, if you have sex, you know that the consequence could be becoming pregnant if you're female; and impregnating your partner if you're male. So do you think, "Oh, damnit! Stupid baby, this is all it's fault!" Do you blame it for disrupting your life and mucking things up? Well, maybe so, but why should you?

You knew when you participated in the action that a baby was a possible consequence.

If you don't want kids; and you're prepared to kill a baby because you enjoyed a bit of pleasure; then don't have sex.

It's that simple. Don't want a baby? Willing to kill a baby? Then how does celibacy sound?

[Toefur]

Yeah, this is a bit of a toughy.

See, the thing is... I understand that an unborn foetus is about alive as a pumpkin. That's what having no brain or central nervous system will do to you (although, jelly fish are alive and have non brain or cns either now that I think of it).

So it doesn't really come accross as killing to me...

However, I agree along the lines of what webdude and chips said. There are consequences for ones actions.

I really think people should take responsibility for their actions, and having an abortion everytime you get pregnant because you've been whoring around, is not taking responsibility for your actions.

Therefor, I think abortion is wrong in most cases, except unless the mother's life is in danger, for example, which is extremely rare anyway.

[Blank Verse]

Abortion is cold-blooded murder, no questions asked.

If you're going to have unprotected sex, you better be responsible enough to raise a child. If you plan to have abortion, there's no responsibility in you, and you would be an unfit parent.

Does that mean you end the baby's life? Of course not. You may not be able to take care of the child, but there are people who can. There are so many people out there who cannot have their own kids, but would love to have a child. You'd think it would be hard to get rid of the child...but if you were considering abortion, how much could you care for this child in the first place?

[meow]

Originally posted by Webdude


What is it then? A cow?? You know that arguement is dead. There are a LOT of people out there who cant have a child and are waiting for one to come up in adoption....except you have a bunch of women who think it's ok to "screw & kill". I'm sorry...but in my mind, if a woman kills my child, then I should have the right to make it even.

No, it's not women's bodies we are talking about. These women want the right to be careless and then murder in cold blood when they do so. It's as simple as this...if you dont want a baby, dont be a ----. Rape is one thing, so is survival of the woman...but abortion as birth control?? That is all it is. All the excuses that the women's movement gives for abortion accounts for only 1% of actual abortions done. However, even the women's groups agree abortion is wrong for birth control. The other 99% of actual abortions done are because the women dont take precautions.

In the end, they just want the right to be irresponsible with new life. If you believe in abortion as birth control, then you should very well believe that mrs whatsherface down here in Houston should get off pure and free for drowning her kids in the bathtub one by one. What's the difference if you kill them in your stomach, or you kill them when they are 5?? You made the decision as to whether or not you wanted a baby when you dropped your pant. And dont give me the "accident" exuse. I'd love to be there to hear the story "Well Dad, my pants accidently fell off and his thing accidently fell into me"

Ahem, you aren't exactly following your own advice now.
http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21313&perpage=15&pagenumber=13#post212991

[Toefur]

Originally posted by meow


Ahem, you aren't exactly following your own advice now.
http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21313&perpage=15&pagenumber=13#post212991

Oooh. Well spotted, well spotted indeed!

[Webdude]

Meow...I am talking about the U.S. I can only say how I feel our own country should do, not others. I am not forcing my view on other countries....but do to people here..

Is abortion as much a heated debate in other countries as it is here?

[Toefur]

But I bet lots of Americans dont want you saying how you feel about them... you know, maybe thats the reason people like Timothy McVeigh hate you so much and blow you all up trying to kill you all. :rolleyes:

[Webdude]

I dont care what my fellow American's think...they are the ones trying to force their own views onto other countries.. so they are the first ones wrong anyway..

[meow]

Well, your post was in reply to an Australian. In fact I think all other posts in this thread were made by non Americans.

[keith]

what chips said is like right on the money, 110%:
Originally posted by +chips


Go me! :D

***

Anyway, this is how I look at abortion. Think of it this way:

If you purposely press a knife blade against your skin, and then realise, "Oh, no, I'm bleeding, I've been cut", who do you blame? Of course, you realise it's your own fault for pressing the knife against your skin.
Pressing the blade is the action; bleeding is the consequence.
You knew, very well, as you pressed the blade to your skin that you might get cut and bleed. But you did it anyway.

Therefore, if you have sex, you know that the consequence could be becoming pregnant if you're female; and impregnating your partner if you're male. So do you think, "Oh, damnit! Stupid baby, this is all it's fault!" Do you blame it for disrupting your life and mucking things up? Well, maybe so, but why should you?

You knew when you participated in the action that a baby was a possible consequence.

If you don't want kids; and you're prepared to kill a baby because you enjoyed a bit of pleasure; then don't have sex.

It's that simple. Don't want a baby? Willing to kill a baby? Then how does celibacy sound?

[Giancarlo]

Hehe... I don't have to worry about getting somebody pregnant... I am queer... but I must agree with Blank verse on this one... abortion is down-right wrong. It is murder. Because even if you try to argue that the fetus isn't a life, or whatever pro-choice people argue, you will find yourself in a dead-end, even if that argument is true... it will be a life. And ending that in my opinion is murder in the first degree. Adoption can be an option.

[anhedonia]

Originally posted by keith
what chips said is like right on the money, 110%:

why thankyou :D.

***


Originally posted by Giancarlo
It is murder. Because even if you try to argue that the fetus isn't a life, or whatever pro-choice people argue, you will find yourself in a dead-end, even if that argument is true... it will be a life. And ending that in my opinion is murder in the first degree.

See comment at: http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=216849#post216849

[Todd]

Originally posted by +chips
You knew when you participated in the action that a baby was a possible consequence.

I have a problem with people having a child as a consequence of their actions. If those people have kids and plan to keep them as a consequence it's very possible there won't be true love there and I think the child would be the one who hurts as a result. If anything I think they should be placed on adoption. If you meant the labor was the consequence for the mother then I'm not disagreeing with you, as I have never heard a woman come back from giving birth saying one more time. :D

However, I think you meant the consequence should be raising the kid and statistically speaking they are probably going to be single parents and the child may not receive the same love they would receive from a wife and husband waiting to adopt. I'm also guessing they probably aren't in the best financial shape if they weren't planning to have a kid. Raising a child as a consequence for your actions isn't right, there should be love there and they should want to have and raise their kid.

I'm never pro-abortion as adoption can always be an option but I am pro-choice. Reason being is if a woman is raped or incest occurs the government shouldn't have a right to force that woman to have a child. Yes, the child is innocent and shouldn't be punished but the woman was also innocent and we shouldn't have a right to punish her either.

[Blank Verse]

I agree...adoption should always be put before abortion.

Cause regardless of whether or not you feel that a fetus is alive or not (IMO I consider it to be alive), you're still putting yourself at risk by having an abortion.

In adoption, everyone wins. A couple gets to raise and love a child like it's their own, the child grows up in a loving atmosphere, or at least better than the one the mother could provide, and the mother is also safe.

My thing with abortion is...ok, for the sake of argument, a fetus isn't really alive. But it will someday be a living thing. Who knows who you could be killing by having an abortion. For all we know, the baby who grows up to cure cancer could have been a victim of an abortion.

[Jan]

Originally posted by Blank Verse
I agree...adoption should always be put before abortion.


From a woman's point of view that is not so easy! You carry that baby for 9 months, there is no way you will give it up to someone else even if you don't want him or her yourself.

So it is a catch 22 situation, you knew you couldn't support the baby, but it grew inside you and you won't give the child away. So what happens???? The woman has a child she was *forced* to have because of anti abortion laws, she can't afford to keep it, the baby will end up still being unwanted, but the ties that happen during childbirth will always prevent the mother giving the child away. So both Mum and child suffer.

A woman should have a choice.

[Blank Verse]

Well, granted I'm not a woman, but I can't believe that if you consider an abortion, that you would actually feel bad about putting it up for adoption.

[Jan]

Of course you would. From 4 months into the pregnancy you can feel that baby moving inside you. It is by then a part of you and continues to grow and be more active. I defy any woman to go through all that with the the thought in their head that they would hand it over to someone else to raise once it is born!

But whilst it is just a positive pregnancy result it is like yikes! Okay, it is still a teeny weenie being, but there are no attachments as yet apart from knowing it is there.

A disclaimer: I wouldn't and couldn't have an abortion.

[anhedonia]

Originally posted by Jan
So it is a catch 22 situation, you knew you couldn't support the baby, but it grew inside you and you won't give the child away. So what happens???? The woman has a child she was *forced* to have because of anti abortion laws, she can't afford to keep it, the baby will end up still being unwanted, but the ties that happen during childbirth will always prevent the mother giving the child away. So both Mum and child suffer.

Erm... Are we talking single mums here? I'm guessing so. Do you know how HUGE the payments are for single mums from the government??? Not to mention that the father is now bound by law to pay child endownment (is that the right word???), whether he sticks around or not. In fact, I've heard many stories of women deliberately getting pregnant with a man they don't intend to ever stay with; just to get the money.

[Jan]

Originally posted by +chips
Erm... Are we talking single mums here? I'm guessing so. Do you know how HUGE the payments are for single mums from the government??? Not to mention that the father is now bound by law to pay child endownment (is that the right word???), whether he sticks around or not. In fact, I've heard many stories of women deliberately getting pregnant with a man they don't intend to ever stay with; just to get the money.
I am talking single and married and not just in Australia. A lot of countries won't have the support for single parents that we do. And the child support agency here is a load of bull! (pardon the pun ;) )
It doesn't and can't force the father to assist if they can't find him, he has no job and various other reasons.

And if a woman does sleep with a guy to get government assistance on childbirth, then the abortion issue never came into it right? :)

[anhedonia]

I see you point. I do, however, think that a massive majority of single mums here are doing quite well. Seriously, though, don't you ever think... Just... Well, what if the baby that got killed last week hadn't been killed? What would he or she have become? A doctor? A fabulous writer? A fantastic actor? A brilliant parent? A highly successful, just lawyer?

I always ask myself, "What if..." in all situations, this included. It just seems such a shame - so many parents weep for their children's lost lives; and yet there are women who don't want to even meet their child. They don't want to feel their skin, or hold them, or even get to know their good and bad habits. They don't want to take away their pain or let them know they're loved...

Instead, they choose to terminate that life.

Terminate. It sounds so cold, doesn't it? Like when you're downloading an mp3, and you press the "Cancel" button. Is that what value human life has now? A "Cancel" button to erase any mistakes; wipe them out as if they were nothing?

[meow]

Originally posted by Todd

I'm never pro-abortion as adoption can always be an option but I am pro-choice. Reason being is if a woman is raped or incest occurs the government shouldn't have a right to force that woman to have a child. Yes, the child is innocent and shouldn't be punished but the woman was also innocent and we shouldn't have a right to punish her either.
So, if the mother has no "guilt" the life of the child is less sacred? Seems to me that this whole reasoning isn't about holy life but about punishing "bad girls". I hear nothing about men. What about them?

[meow]

Originally posted by Webdude

Is abortion as much a heated debate in other countries as it is here? Sorry, I didn't see your question Webdude.

I wouldn't say it's debated at all in Sweden. There are small groups that are opposed to it but they aren't big enough to cause any real debate. This was a hot topic here in the 60's and early 70's before the free abortion law came through but not nowadays.

[[lhomme]]

IMO, abortion should be legal.

Morally however, I feel that if you are going to get an abortion, do it in a reasonable amount of time (maybe before 2 months into the pregnancy). At this point, I see nothing wrong with aborting a child that you don't want or don't have the resources to properly care for. Aborting late in the pregnancy or tossing the baby after its born is just wrong.

Just my opinion.

[Todd]

Originally posted by meow

So, if the mother has no "guilt" the life of the child is less sacred? Seems to me that this whole reasoning isn't about holy life but about punishing "bad girls". I hear nothing about men. What about them?
I guess I don't see where you are going with this but no the child is never less sacred. Children are always precious and innocent but I won't be the one to force women to have children if they were raped, that's a lot different from a woman making a choice to have sex.

If she didn't get the chance to choose to have a child or not she shouldn't be punished by being forced to have the child. With that said that's why I'm prochoice, that combined with what would happen if a president was foolish to outlaw abortions. Think of all the ways these desperate and emotionally unstable women would try to kill their babies. If they were willing to have an abortion my guess is they would be willing to try anything to kill the baby so it's not born, and if they fail I'd hate to see the numbers on babies found in dumpsters.. You can't make abortions illegal even if morally you want to.

You hear nothing about men because this is an issue of abortion and the courts have been clear that men don't have the right to choose to keep a child or not when the woman wants an abortion. I don't like that men don't have rights over what could be their child but I think we can all understand why the courts want people to have control over their own bodies.

[meow]

I'm not going anywhere. I'm trying to figure out what you think and why because I don't understand what you are saying. Earlier I've got the impression that you are dead against free abortion. Now you say you are pro choice.
Is that choice for everyone or only for rape victims? If it's not for everyone - why then, if it's not because we shouldn't end a life?

[Todd]

It's the choice for everyone. The reason you are probably confused as to my thoughts is because they are separate.

On a personal level I think abortion is wrong and I think adoption can always be used in place.

However, my personal feelings are based on morals that only I have and applying the same logic to everyone else is wrong. The reason for that is simple, if abortion became illegal you would hear about a lot more back alley abortions, women trying to kill the baby with over dosing on medications, and you would hear about a lot more babies found in dumpsters.

You can't make abortion illegal and no matter how much people are against it they have to open their eyes to see what would happen if it was made illegal.

[kojiro]

I think its a misconception that having an abortion is much safer than going thru a normal delivery.


Having an abortion is really dangerous. So many side effects. There's a good chance the woman may never have kids ever.

[Hoth]

I'd basically agree with those who say that most people having abortions simply shouldn't have gotten themselves into the situation if they didn't want a kid. On the other hand, a fetus in the early stages is such an unintelligent creature that I would not put abortion anywhere near the level of murdering children or even murdering apes and dolphins. Dolphins are far more sentient and aware and suffering while being killed than a fetus is. In fact most animals are.


Originally posted by Blank Verse
Who knows who you could be killing by having an abortion. For all we know, the baby who grows up to cure cancer could have been a victim of an abortion.

The "potential" argument isn't a good one. If you really don't want to prevent potential children, you should be out impregnating women 24 hours hours a day, because any of those potential genetic combinations could grow up to cure cancer if you'd just let them be conceived. Any non-pregnant day a woman spends is preventing a potential child.

Either you think the fetus should be considered fully human despite lack of development, or you don't... potential to become human doesn't play a role if you're being consistent.