Condition of a server on delivery?

[Decker]

Here's a thing I haven't seen asked before and being subjected to this situation I wonder what you think is acceptible.

Should a server ever be delivered (online) to a new user/client without being rebuilt from scratch, that is should a server be cleaned of accounts and handed over without rebuilding the OS?

[Jun Luzon]

Unless the user was told prior to it that he/she will be handled with a recycled server, the provider must make sure it is in a fresh condition ( the hardware and the software.) Even used PCs are being cleaned of any single dust before placing them to the display window.

If it's a server used by a multi-billion dollar bank, then I'd prefer it uncleaned though. ;)

[Galaxy-Hosts.com]

The hardware should all be in working order and the hard drives should ALWAYS be formatted and reloaded before turning the machine over to a new client.

[cmartin]

Yup, I agree with what's already been said. All of the hardware should not only be in perfect working order (and good condition, for that matter), but all of the HDD's should be formatted and cleared. After all, who wants to receive a dirty server? :wink2:

Chris

[Decker]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks this.

What would you think of a supplier that thinks that the customer should 'clean-up' a server and hope no-one has left a backdoor?

Apparently this supplier thinks that "Previous servers are used. Its how the dedicated server business works."

[cmartin]

What would you think of a supplier that thinks that the customer should 'clean-up' a server and hope no-one has left a backdoor?

If I ever had to deal with such a supplier, I would think that they were A) very lazy and B) could care less about the condition of the server, and what problems the new owner may experience (if any, of course).

Chris

[Decker]

This is an 'established company' makes the picture worse doesn't it!

[cmartin]

They are an established company?! Oh my...that does indeed make things quite a bit worse. So, they feel that it should be the new owners responsibility to clean the server (format the HDD's, remove all previous accounts, etc.)?

Chris

[TaiLZ]

You'd wanna make sure it's in top shape or fix it if it isn't, specially the high paying clients. Format the HDDs fo sho'

[Galaxy-Hosts.com]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks this.

What would you think of a supplier that thinks that the customer should 'clean-up' a server and hope no-one has left a backdoor?

Apparently this supplier thinks that "Previous servers are used. Its how the dedicated server business works." I would look elsewhere for a server. That is not the industry standard and reflects poorly on the company.
I will bet they do not reload the OS for free as well. Free reinstalls are not the norm, but I bet they use this to get some extra money out of you.

[Darknight]

Isnt it also against the law to sell a computer that isnt freshly installed??
It is to sell a PC here without reformatting I dont know about a server seems the samething though..

[James]

Here's a thing I haven't seen asked before and being subjected to this situation I wonder what you think is acceptible.

Should a server ever be delivered (online) to a new user/client without being rebuilt from scratch, that is should a server be cleaned of accounts and handed over without rebuilding the OS?

A shoddy service might just hand over a WHM login of a cancelled server. Of course it's unacceptable. Hardware tests, format and new OS install is just the ABC, 123 of deploying a server to a client.

[Jovial]

i say the os has to be reinstalled
fix faulty hardware
format hd
etc

[JewlzK]

Here's a thing I haven't seen asked before and being subjected to this situation I wonder what you think is acceptible.

Should a server ever be delivered (online) to a new user/client without being rebuilt from scratch, that is should a server be cleaned of accounts and handed over without rebuilding the OS?

We always reformat our servers before handing them over to new clients. Its always best to do it this way.

:-)

[Richard]

Well I know one thing ;) I've never buying a dedicated server from XeonGX. Lol.

I do agree with what most other people think, a supplier that supplies a client with a server that has NOT had an OS reinstallation since the last owner, is someone you should stay away from, no matter how "established" they are.

[utcrazy]

As long as the hardware is still functioning, there is no need for a new server, if there was, there would be thousands of servers in perfect condition that won't be able to be used.

[Richard]

utcrazy,

What about the OS being reinstalled?

[Galaxy-Hosts.com]

As long as the hardware is still functioning, there is no need for a new server, if there was, there would be thousands of servers in perfect condition that won't be able to be used. I agree , but The OS should always be reinstalled.

[cmartin]

I agree , but The OS should a;ways be reinstalled.

Yup, agreed.

Chris

[Eclouds]

What? What if the previous client had sensitive information in it??? This is ridiculous!

[heymrdj]

I never recycled a server without personally reformatting, error checking, and rebuilding the server.

[Jun Luzon]

If I am the client and I have very sensitive information on it, then I would want the server not only be reformatted but physically destroyed after my use. :P

[Decker]

Well I know one thing ;) I've never buying a dedicated server from XeonGX. Lol.

You noticed it too :lol:

So far
utcrazy (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=37003), XeonGX (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=16831372) - don't think it's required at all & nealle (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=16842288), rohitj (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=39808), TechoHost (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=16839987) think it's just a maybe!

Fortunately the ones who think it is required well out number them :knockedou

[heymrdj]

You noticed it too :lol:

So far
utcrazy (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=37003), XeonGX (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=16831372) - don't think it's required at all & nealle (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=16842288), rohitj (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=39808), TechoHost (http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/member.php?u=16839987) think it's just a maybe!

Fortunately the ones who think it is required well out number them :knockedou

This thread is turning out to be an excellent do not buy list, eH? :knockedou

[Jun Luzon]

Since they aren't going to be sellers of unformatted used servers, but more or less are considerate users of efficiently recycled ones, I see them as the most efficient and environment friendly consumers in the world. Viewed at a different angle of prospective.

[Mystikk]

What? What if the previous client had sensitive information in it??? This is ridiculous!

Exactly what I am thinking.... I know my servers have lots of information that I wouldn't want passed on.

For people who are leaving a company, ask for a reload before you leave, just to make sure nothing is left.

[Decker]

How about users leaving backdoors and other nasties behind so they can sneak in later!!

[AvailNetworks]

new hardware = of course not
fresh software = most definitely

if a company actually would honestly think that a software reload was not needed, even if someone else had the server for a day and did not even touch it. I would hope they have the common sense to close their doors and sheepishly leave the business.

personally I think data centers should be going a step further and doing a dod spec wipe before a new reload

[Decker]

new hardware = of course not
fresh software = most definitely

Maybe I should have specified OS reload, if the hardwares okay no sense in mucking about with it, but a clean rebuild is a must, most DC's if not all would use a 'gold brick' image to rebuild it from either a bootable CD/DVD or a PIXI network load.

[Craig]

A server provider would ALWAYS install a fresh OS. IPs, now that's another story ;).

Providers wont give you a brand new server all the time, if that was the case many would go out of business. Budget servers are mainly used servers, brand new servers come at a cost. If the hardware is in good condition then there wouldn't be a problem, do you think LT/rack space sell brand new servers for each order? in fact you will find that the old ones are the best as they have proven themselves (that makes machine sound like man :P).

Anyway, my main point is, used servers are a MASSIVE player, OS reloads would always be completed, just like us, all hard drives are wiped before any new client is installed on a machine provided by us. If a client does find a problem on the OS then a rebuild is an option & at no charge if the problem is our fault. Most servers are unmanaged so its the clients responsibility to check the server unless managed services are ordered (that's how we work anyway).

[Decker]

Funny you should mention those issues in that way Craig.

So if a server is provided by a supplier without being rebuilt, this being obvious due to the number of faults - only after the client has put in a lot of work to find the problems, would you still say it's the clients problem to find and fix these and take down all their sites whilst it's being reloaded with a clean build, and the supplier is not responsible - managed or not?

[James]

Mr Kilt,

Number of faults doesn't equate to non-rebuilt server, it could be just badly rebuilt.

Hardware or even OS faults - obviously the client can't do anything about them. It's upto the provider and is their responsibility to provide/release a full functional, fault-free server to the client.

[Decker]

Okay, heres a quote clever clogs from support.


Services were provided, an operating reload didn't need to be completed but could of been requested.
The IPs were still registered, that isn't our fault nor the data centers fault. Its up to the person (s) who had the server before yourself to remove the assigned IPs.
The Open DNS issue, again, the server was unmanaged. That is your responsibility to fix. The system came installed with the OS & control panel of your choice. Once the details were issued its up to yourself to manage your server there on.

What say ye English?

Oh and old script installs were still present of things stated 'were not supplied' - so they just 'magically' appeared :)

[Richard]

Services were provided, an operating reload didn't need to be completed but could of been requested.

Bull----, if your going to recycle a server, it NEEDS an OS reinstallation, what if the person before installed a virus, or a backdoor into the system that they did not detect?


The IPs were still registered, that isn't our fault nor the data centers fault. Its up to the person (s) who had the server before yourself to remove the assigned IPs.

I have to agree, it's just not feasable to offer everyone IP's that have never been used before.


The Open DNS issue, again, the server was unmanaged. That is your responsibility to fix. The system came installed with the OS & control panel of your choice. Once the details were issued its up to yourself to manage your server there on.

100% agree, cPanel as standard comes with Open DNS, if you want it another way, thats your problem.

[Decker]

I have to agree, it's just not feasable to offer everyone IP's that have never been used before.

Agreed, but it was ghost NS entries that kept cocking things up.


100% agree, cPanel as standard comes with Open DNS, if you want it another way, thats your problem.

It was BIND that was bad not cPanel - was configured for full external recursive DNS.

[Richard]

It was BIND that was bad not cPanel - was configured for full external recursive DNS.

And on a basic install of cPanel, that is how Bind is setup unless it's changed.

[utcrazy]

utcrazy,

What about the OS being reinstalled?

OS should always be reinstalled and the drive should be formatted accordingly.

[Decker]

Beg to differ, it should be internal (trusted) only for recursive lookups, external (not trusted) it should be disabled, at least it has in the past for me unless it's a 'new improved' feature which I would it doubt being classed as that as it opens the server up to the whole world! The internal and external nameservices need to be seperate.

[Richard]

Decker,

I've done my fair share of cPanel installs ;)

[Craig]

Bull----, if your going to recycle a server, it NEEDS an OS reinstallation, what if the person before installed a virus, or a backdoor into the system that they did not detect?

Hi Richard, I think this refers to a new OS reload install besides the first one when the server was released to Decker when the login details were sent.

I could go into further details but will refrain until Decker gives me the go''a''head ;).

[Decker]

Decker,

I've done my fair share of cPanel installs ;)

Well done - me too :wink2:

[Decker]

Hi Richard, I think this refers to a new OS reload install besides the first one when the server was released to Decker when the login details were sent.

I could go into further details but will refrain until Decker gives me the go''a''head ;).

It refers to the OS load present on handover to the client, in that it was not a clean reload it was just 'scrubbed up' unfortunately badly :rolleyes2 , containing, lets call it modifications, by the previous client and an installation of Fantastico strapped on which was not licensed by either supplier nor DC - so quite plain it was not formatted and rebuilt. Simple logic really. And that's the point, all the other stuff is incidental and up for discussion, but not the main point.

[Craig]

It refers to the OS load present on handover to the client, in that it was not a clean reload it was just 'scrubbed up' unfortunately badly :rolleyes2 , containing, lets call it modifications, by the previous client and an installation of Fantastico strapped on which was not licensed by either supplier nor DC - so quite plain it was not formatted and rebuilt. Simple logic really. And that's the point, all the other stuff is incidental and up for discussion, but not the main point.

It was & would like to see your proof on this matter please. Not one time would you provide any login for either myself or my staff to verify that fantastico was there. Even though we took your word without seeing any proof nor your willingness to comply we couldn't help. A full reload could of been an option if we thought so but again, with no compliance from yourself this was impossible.

You asked for advice on were to obtain a server, please note that we don't deal in US based servers now, we sell servers direct at our own data center here in the UK, with this we have full control. I suggested a US DC which us ourselves have been using for many months without one problem, we have around 4 servers with them now along with many other US DCs & they are the best by far.

From my own opinion Decker (and this has no affect on the way I think of yourself which I believe we have a good laugh & have always gotten on when chatting) is that you didn't comply with us, due to your unwillingness to corresponde & assist support staff we couldn't help. You wouldn't provide login details, information wasn't correct. Its very hard to check a problem on a server without root access, its impossible.

Now as I've said, we don't sell US servers anymore & you were lucky to obtain our advice on were to go, I would rather sell you a UK server, that way we have full control on our hardware & networks. When acting as a 3rd party as we did its much harder for us to communicate with yourself & the DC & when one party wont comply we are stuck.

Anyway Decker, I hope you manage to find a server that can be your best friend. One piece of advice I would give is, don't buy a server from a reseller, go direct to the DC otherwise you will most likely encounter further problems.

Goodluck :)

[Decker]

Already have made direct contact with DC's as now it's just too much to deal through a third party, no offence taken mate, won't hold it against you :evilb: but just you mind :P

FYI the server CRON for fantastico was copied into the support ticket so it should have been enough but just incase they missed it here's the latest one take it you can verify the server IP is the correct one for reference.:-)

On the login details, I asked what was required and what the DC would do before allowing them root access to a live server, never got a reply to that (and I don't like handing over root casually), a reload of the OS was never offered. Should have been the first option but even then it would mean taking out a live server, no suggestions on that either. A lot of 'refering' to the DC was being done and repeated staements that the DC has no SLA.

Unlike previously with support issues tech support was not filling me with confidence.


Fantastico De Luxe WHM Admin Cron

Server: (66.79.162.130 (http://66.79.162.130/))

Date/Time: April 10th, 2007 @ 7:12 PM

This server is not properly licensed.
Your main server IP as currently seen by our servers is 66.79.162.130 (http://66.79.162.130/).
If you have submitted a different IP for licensing, please contact your NOC if this is a NOC license or email sales@netenberg.com (sales@netenberg.com) with order number, currently licensed IP and new IP (66.79.162.130 (http://66.79.162.130/)) if this is a self-purchased license.
If this is a self-purchased license, it may also have expired. In this case, please follow the payment link in the renewal notification which you have received by email in order to renew your license.
If you ran a demo version of Fantastico, you now need to purchase a full license. (http://netenberg.com/shop/)Fantastico (http://netenberg.com/shop/)Fantastico) De Luxe master files update
This server is not properly licensed.
Your main server IP as currently seen by our servers is 66.79.162.130 (http://66.79.162.130/).
If you have submitted a different IP for licensing, please contact your NOC if this is a NOC license or email sales@netenberg.com (sales@netenberg.com) with order number, currently licensed IP and new IP (66.79.162.130 (http://66.79.162.130/)) if this is a self-purchased license.
If this is a self-purchased license, it may also have expired. In this case, please follow the payment link in the renewal notification which you have received by email in order to renew your license.
If you ran a demo version of Fantastico, you now need to purchase a full license.http://netenberg.com/shop/


Update complete

[Craig]

Already have made direct contact with DC's as now it's just too much to deal through a third party, no offence taken mate, won't hold it against you :evilb: but just you mind :P

FYI the server CRON for fantastico was copied into the support ticket so it should have been enough but just incase they missed it here's the latest one take it you can verify the server IP is the correct one for reference.:-)

On the login details, I asked what was required and what the DC would do before allowing them root access to a live server, never got a reply to that (and I don't like handing over root casually), a reload of the OS was never offered. Should have been the first option but even then it would mean taking out a live server, no suggestions on that either. A lot of 'refering' to the DC was being done and repeated staements that the DC has no SLA.

Unlike previously with support issues tech support was not filling me with confidence.

A reload is an option at all times, we didn't believe one was necessary as we didn't see any problem, the main problem was over the IP allocation which was totally out of our control as others in this thread have stated. The open DNS issue was also not our fault. Unmanaged means unmanaged, its your server, not ours, its just a base system for you to control, install/add/remove what you like etc etc.

I can totally understand your frustration, maybe our support staff (some) didn't give you the best confidence, this is a problem currently highlighted & is under control now, our support is our number one priority, that's why a new support number is being added which will operate 24/7, am sure you know this anyway.

I could of blanked this thread but I didn't see any reason why, we are/were your provided & even though things didn't go in the right direction that doesn't stop us caring & will continue to help you if you need it. Am sure Paul & his security fingers may come in hard in the future :P.

I will though follow up on the OS issue, even though I wouldn't think a data center would not reload an OS it still has to be investigated & I will surely follow that up now. If I can manage to secure a credit of some sort I will of course let you know.

[James]

Okay, heres a quote clever clogs from support.

What say ye English?

Oh and old script installs were still present of things stated 'were not supplied' - so they just 'magically' appeared :)

Actually what the support told you is true and is cleverly put into your situation. But it's not really the gripe you are trying to raise to them I think.

The nameserver ips appearing in your WHM (i presume) is indeed quite a common thing where the previous user have not changed/removed the domain hosts. That can be easily fixed though by deselecting a lookup option in WHM.

If you found crums of fantastico installs or any other remains, well yes that definitely is a little fishy. That would be hardcore proof. But unless it states somewhere on the website "we format, reinstall OS and rebuild from scratch for all server deployments", all you can argue at is the integrety of the provider, not what they owe you.

Open DNS, well that is very simple to fix. Issues like those you can post them on forums such as this one and you'd get quick help ;)

Unmanaged is unmanaged though. But even with managed services it's more than difficult to find a provider who is truly proactive in helping you with your problems, even in Scotland. :D

So in your case the possible valid arguments are the points which suggest that the deployment process was a bit slack. From reading it looks like it could have been in your particular case.

So it appears the provider was Craig, he's looking into possible issues and trying to improve it or make sure it doesn't happen again which is only a good thing. Maybe it doesn't help that he's just south of the border from you in Manchester. :D But things like this can happen time to time, but it's very rare in 1st class datacenters.

[James]

Anyway Decker, I hope you manage to find a server that can be your best friend. One piece of advice I would give is, don't buy a server from a reseller, go direct to the DC otherwise you will most likely encounter further problems.

This is one bit I disagree with and think is misleading.

There are a lot of quality reselling server providers out there, and if you ask anybody I'm sure everyone prefers a resold quality managed server from a top class, world class datacenter (most of these actually don't provide dedicated servers directly!), than a crummy no-brand server put together by a third-class datacenter.

When people say this about reselling, it's usually a marketing tool. But the truth most of the time is, they rent space from the datacenters anyway for racks. There's not that much difference. Racks, colo, dedicated servers, VPS, rent larger spaces, it's all rent!

I seriously don't know how many options you'd end up with if you only look for a dedicated server from a company who provides directly from their own datacenter which they fully own and they fully operate.

[Craig]

This is one bit I disagree with and think is misleading.

There are a lot of quality reselling server providers out there, and if you ask anybody I'm sure everyone prefers a resold quality managed server from a top class, world class datacenter (most of these actually don't provide dedicated servers directly!), than a crummy no-brand server put together by a third-class datacenter.

When people say this about reselling, it's usually a marketing tool. But the truth most of the time is, they rent space from the datacenters anyway for racks. There's not that much difference. Racks, colo, dedicated servers, VPS, rent larger spaces, it's all rent!

I seriously don't know how many options you'd end up with if you only look for a dedicated server from a company who provides directly from their own datacenter which they fully own and they fully operate.

I don't have any issues with server resellers, at one time I did the same thing, am only putting my own valid point across from what I learned. You will tend to get more issues, delays, support issues by dealing with a 3rd party or middle man. Put it this way (this is just an example), Mr Man/Woman buys a server from a provider, server goes down & the provider who he or she bought the server from isn't around. Mr Man/Woman is left in the lurch, no provider to contact etc etc, were is if he or she ordered direct most DC's have 24/7 staff, even if they only rent space, at least they have access to there hardware, reboot is completed within minutes. To me that saves a lot of messing. Its much easier to deal direct. Surely your not going to disagree with me on that.

We ourselves have a system called TXT-To-Boot were any dedicated client can send a text message to have there server rebooted. The mobile receives the command & a staff member at our DC is there to reboot. Simple as 1-2-3 :-) compared to last year when we had to email the DC & wait. At least our own method is controlled by us. The more control you have, the better the service & you ALWAYS know whats going on.

[James]

Right Craig, agree with your points which are all valid. I only replied to it because maybe your original post sounded a little down-ing on the reselling.

For me at least, it's still about balance & priorities. If a client specifically wants to talk to the person who'll physically work the server, that's all good they'll need a provider like ThePlanet, SoftLayer, LayeredTech, LiquidWeb or PowerVPS. But even there, work is relayed between staff and departments. And not all reselling is with lengthened delays in communication.

At the end of the day it all depends on the service concerned and their setup.

But I guess this is why it's very difficult for everyone to find the provider that is right for them.

[Decker]

All good points taken Craig & James , in Craig I trust lets say :-)

Your right James in that all the additional faults/errors made it a worse scenario than it could have been (the BIND problem was simple enough once found - one line change), the fact that Fantastico was fully operational from day one was the 'clue' though after the license ran out and the supplier said it hadn't supplied it :lol: so the issue is exactly the fact that the server had not had a fresh reload of the OS, the rest is just the straw that broke the camels back as it made it all very confusing to diagnose, too many 'red herrings' you might say.

Lets hope all the discussion on this one will open a few eyes and make a difference for the better :angel:

Hate to hit HD as they've been generally great and only recently been as much a victim as myself of 3rd party activities - so left in your capable hands Craig me old son. And I know where you are so I'll come round and break your windows :P - then bill you for a tank of petrol for driving there and back :lol: :evilb:

[Craig]

And I know where you are so I'll come round and break your windows :P - then bill you for a tank of petrol for driving there and back :lol: :evilb:

No problem, I know a nice little petrol station were the petrol is first class, not one of these hit by the faulty petrol scare ;).

:lol:

[James]

Craig, beware, Decker and James are planning on throwing a brick wall into your window. James has been looking for this opportunity since June 2005.

[Decker]

No problem, I know a nice little petrol station were the petrol is first class, not one of these hit by the faulty petrol scare ;).

:lol:
Got 2 tanks of that and been using V-Power since, it's flamin great :evilb:


Craig, beware, Decker and James are planning on throwing a brick wall into your window. James has been looking for this opportunity since June 2005.

You owe me one for that :lol:

[Craig]

Craig, beware, Decker and James are planning on throwing a brick wall into your window. James has been looking for this opportunity since June 2005.

I know you have but if you can get through the 10 foot high gates, CCTV & the dogs undetected you can smash all my windows.

I say I say, 10 for the price of 5, pick up the bleeden phone :lol:.

[Decker]

I know you have but if you can get through the 10 foot high gates, CCTV & the dogs undetected you can smash all my windows.

It's amazing how far you can throw - with a crane :lol:

[Jun Luzon]

It's amazing how far you can throw - with a crane :lol:

Guys, pleeeeeeeease!!!!
STOP VIOLENCE!

Don't use a crane, use this.
http://allaboutfree.com/images/svu_2.jpg

[Decker]

:evilb: We haven't even started yet :evilb:

All in the best of fun of course :fork:

[omega36]

I would completely reformat and reload the OS and software and perform some form of stress testing for a few hours before I deemed it re-usable.