Spam question

[Johnson]

Would posting a link to a file, hosted on my own server, be considered spam?

I got this infraction from Jan, had a back and forth with her and she's no longer responding.


Dear Johnson,

You have received an infraction at FreeWebspace.net.

Reason: Self promotion. (See rule 1)
-------
Will you just quit linking to your site every chance you get?
-------

This infraction is worth 2 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

Original Post:
http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/showthread.php?p=964999
Quote:
<<snipped links>>
All the best,
FreeWebspace.net

I'm not sure if the rules have changed or not, but just in case I've started to report posts with links hosted on people's own servers.

[sep]

Why doesn't FWS want us to have a successful site?

[Johnson]

You missed the point sep, I didn't spam and I wasn't trying to promote my site.

[sep]

I just saw this thread as an opportunity to bring up the question.

[iBrightDev]

Would posting a link to a file, hosted on my own server, be considered spam?

I got this infraction from Jan, had a back and forth with her and she's no longer responding.

I'm not sure if the rules have changed or not, but just in case I've started to report posts with links hosted on people's own servers.

i wouldnt see it as spam. shoot, almost every image i post on fws is on my server. :S

[stuffradio]

Hmm that's a tough one. I would say The longest thread is just posting random stuff. Ads & Offers would be best to advertise something, Web design would be best to ask about your design, etc.

I'm not totally sure if there is any place for random song files unless there is some meaning to it instead of just spamming it :P

[Cam.]

But if you look all through that thread it's spam... I don't think that Johnson's infraction was fair personally...

[stuffradio]

I'm just saying... I don't go in that thread that much.

I was just throwing some $0.02 in and yeah. Take it up with Jan :)

[Jan]

When you are dropping links to your site at every opportunity you can, it becomes spam.

[AMC]

He wasn't dropping links to his site usrely ? :s he was merely sharing his songs with us. There arent many file hosting services on the internet, where you can put a song up to stream, he was surely left with no option than to host it on his server.

If I where to post a design, or a program for someone to look over, or even just a couple of images, I would link it thus : hostingcrate.com/stuff/...

HOW is that spam ? I hate to say it, but I think the rules are on the wrong side of the issue with this one. ;)

Just my 2c

[Jan]

You post designs in ads and offers or site reviews though :rolleyes:

I might add that devin and I have exchanged a few PMs on this matter already. Seems he was posting them for Tree where he could easily have PMed him.

[AMC]

i hate to go all constitutional on you Jan, but surely the unwritten rule of a community (what allows them to tick if you will) is the reasonable freedom and ability to share things (information, works of creativity or whatever).

Johnson may have made the songs for tree - but he chose to post them on a public forum (in a section which, one would have thought, inconvenienced others the least) and myself and others have also enjoyed them ;)

Lastly, as there was as far as I can make out, there was little mal-intent ( mal- as per fws rules anyway) in the act, surely blowing it up and editing the links of one of the most regular contributors to the community (although in some cases very valid and necessary i will concede), is counter productive and works against the fws atmosphere - for want of a better way of describing it :p

[hamster]

Agreed :D Why an infraction? Aren't we supposed to be one great and happy family here?

[Peo]

I can't see the post, but from what I understand from your explanation I would have to agree with Jan on this.

It is correct that we are more relaxed in enforcing the rules in Test things out and we don't actively moderate it. But if you break a rule repeatedly there you will eventually get an infraction there too. It's not intended as a zone where the rules don't count. Was it a direct link to the file or a link to a page on your site?

[AMC]

It wasn't a direct link to his site at all from what I understand, it was a link to a music file (direct streaming) that he had created, then hosted on one of his websites.

Would you rather we posted a link with the IP of the folder - because frankly its a hassle that we needn't reasonably endure. Im still at a loss as to why this constituted a breaking of the rules.

-Johnson makes something
-Johnson wants to share with friends on a community (specifically one member, but others enjoy them to, and the spirit of collaboration of creativety should endure)
-Johnson therefore has to put his files online, so Johnson takes the obvious option, and hosts the file on a directory on his own website (common sense anybody ?)
-Apparently Johnson (though he wasnt posting in a central forum even) has broken the rules because he has promoted his site .... :o sorry, did I miss something ?

-----
In the end, it is an admins decision as to how rigidly the rules should be upheld , but this is bordering on being silly. Its not the infraction itself - we've all had them to a degree, but more a point of principle :)

If the owner of imageshack.us became a member on here, would you give him an infraction if he hosted an image there.... ?

PS, the links have been moderated on this thread as well, which, when we are attempting to have a feedback discussion (not in ANY way related to promotion) is a little confusing/misleading ;) any chance they could be returned ?

[iBrightDev]

i am sorry, but, i fully have to disagree with Jans decision on this one.

[Peo]

I see your point AMC and yes you should be allowed to share what you've created with other members here. The ideal place for that would be Ads & offers or privately with those who have requested it. If it's related to webdesign it should be in Review my webdesign and if it's promoting your own webhost it's in Free hosting offers or Paid hosting offers. I think the decision to warn was made due to repeated mentioning of his website in previous posts in that thread. By itself that post may not have been enough to receive an infraction. Atleast that's how I understand it.

[iBrightDev]

to infract on that particular post should be taken away then. maybe infract for other posts if needed, but, that particular post was not to mention his site. that would be like infracting me for posting pics of my desktop or whatever, and seeing that the image is hosting on my server. there should have been no difference between him posting links from a musing sharing site for his songs, or his own server. IMO he should have that particular infraction reversed. sometimes mods and admin are wrong, and this seems to be one of those cases. i know it is hard to admit when wrong, but, it is necessary in certain circumstances.

[AMC]

In the last 20 pages of LTE ( I couldnt be bothered to go further back than that ) Jonhson has linked to that site (in the form of songs, and one peice of paint art ( you might think design review - but not really appropriate in the case of that picture ;) ) approximately 3-4 times, In a thread as prolific as LTE I hardly call that repeated offence.

Also, as the case I have been arguing is that the linking isn't a crime in the first place, then its repitition should be no more so. (unless done so an unreasonable number of times).

Would be nice to hear Jan's opinion on what has been said ? :)

[Jan]

in a section which, one would have thought, inconvenienced others the least) and myself and others have also enjoyed them ;)
In a section that the rules also apply to and viewable to everyone including SEs.

Agreed :D Why an infraction? Aren't we supposed to be one great and happy family here?
Let's all spam then!

Would you rather we posted a link with the IP of the folder -
That would be better.

i am sorry, but, i fully have to disagree with Jans decision on this one.
Nothing unusual about that :p

In the last 20 pages of LTE ( I couldnt be bothered to go further back than that )
You don't see all the ones that were removed.

[Cam.]

I agree with AMC. 3-4 times in a thread that is totally made for spamming is not really repetitive, and anyway if you look back through that thread I have linked to things on my site about 5 times... So has about half the people that have posted in that thread (Lets take Colin as an example) so I don't think that Johnson should have received an infraction for that, unless your willing to go through and infract everybody that has linked 4 times or so then the infraction should really be reversed.

[Johnson]

I totally understand if I just posted my site index, but I posted a link to a file for download. I make no money off the song, it's free, there are no ads. I wasn't specifically linking the files to just Trevor, but to everyone.


I see your point AMC and yes you should be allowed to share what you've created with other members here. The ideal place for that would be Ads & offers or privately with those who have requested it. If it's related to webdesign it should be in Review my webdesign and if it's promoting your own webhost it's in Free hosting offers or Paid hosting offers. I think the decision to warn was made due to repeated mentioning of his website in previous posts in that thread. By itself that post may not have been enough to receive an infraction. Atleast that's how I understand it.
It's not an ad, I'm not making any money whatsoever on these song files. I wanted to know what people thought of them, so I really have no specific members that I'd PM them to. In my last 5 infractions, none have been self promotion.


Was it a direct link to the file or a link to a page on your site?
Direct link to the file, no index.

[themoose]

I agree with Johnson, and not just because it's Johnson.

You admins gotta remember people don't have to visit this forum, also, it's not as if Johnson's here for spam purposes.

[AMC]

Jan - You have missed the point entirely ;)

You have chosen to dissect what I have said completely, and use the rules as ultimate and final ruling for this.

However, the rules are for interpretation, and It is my belief that under your interpretation (in this instance), a large element of the spirit of community cannot function.

I reiterate my question - if the owner of imageshack.us was a member, would you give him a fraction every time he linked to an image (assuming that 90&#37; of those posted in this forum are on that site - as an example).

I really think you are wrong to accuse Johnson of promoting his site (which is why the rule you are using was brought into existence). If you accept that he was not attempting to promote his site THEN the only 'crime' he commited was to utilise this community in the fashion common to all such websites - Collaboration of creativity (something we are ALL guilty of - so infract us all ;) )

The fact that he posted these links in the LTE is actually, irrelevant, and I wouldnt like people to get hung up on that area of my arguement (while it is a n important point if we arent taking this whole thing as a point of principle for the forum as a whole).

Asking us to post an IP link is just ridiculous - I am aware that fws is thought of as the non-techie techie community, and many people just wouldnt know how (Im serious on that point).

I feel that the fws administration may have (in isolated instances) become to hung up on the rules - to the point where the very spirit of sharing is now conditional upon the manner in which we share.

I agree, if there is an obvious attempt to promote your site on an inappropriate forum then you should recieve an infraction.

However, If we are so restricted that we cannot a directory on one of our websites (with obviously no intent to promote them by spam or other methods) as a means for sharing works of creativity with people we have come to know and like, then I feel (and I suspect I am not alone) that a serious change is in order. ;)

[Space Ghost]

I agree with Johnson, and not just because it's Johnson.

You admins gotta remember people don't have to visit this forum, also, it's not as if Johnson's here for spam purposes.

quoted for truth

(and AMC's post)

[iBrightDev]

Nothing unusual about that :p

i know you say this because you dont really care for me an what not, and this has nothing to do with whatever personal beef you have with me. this is simply that you might, just for once, need to see the error you have made, and you wont do that. this is not the first time i have disagreed with you, but, you normally have a stronger case. this time, you really dont have anywhere to stand. the only real person backing your decision was Peo, but, even he has said that we pointed out a lot of good things. i know he probably doesnt want to go and say that you could have been wrong, but, try to step off the pedestal, just for a moment, and see that you really could have just made a simple mistake. we are all human. that is what we do. just think about it this time Jan. i do agree that you are a great admin/mod, and you run a tight ship. this is why i love FWS, but, you are sort of an infraction nazi, if i may, and you know that you can be wrong sometimes. as you can see, you are the only one this time that thinks you did the right thing. thank about it.

[utcrazy]

People are missing the point. Jan isn't saying that people can't post links from their servers. She is saying that when someone continuously posts new threads, posts, topics, etc. with blatant links to their own site at every opportunity, then it becomes a bit profuse. I have to agree Devin has no objection to shamelessly promoting his sites at any opportunity (and that includes MSN spamming) so I agree with her decision.

[Kwek]

From what I gather, it was direct links to files that Johnson wanted to share that resulted in the infraction. Personally, I have also seen some of his links--and I think they are fine.

He wanted to share something with us and instead of uploading it on a file hosting service, he chose to upload it on his own site. He then posted the link to the file so everyone could download it. I don't see any wrong in that case, as it is the same as uploading it on a file hosting service and posting it. He just used his site as the 'host' where he uploaded the files. This is not advertising in my humble opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Kwek

[Jan]

In my last 5 infractions, none have been self promotion.
What about those before the last five. And in your last 5 one was POC because you posted a link to your site.


Direct link to the file, no index.
Showing your domain name.

And for you Johnson buddies, you are very quick to yell spam if a new member comes in and posts a link to a "helpful file".


but, you are sort of an infraction nazi, if i may,
If that was the case you would have all received a heck of a lot more! Many of you would have been banned for your rudeness several times over.

[Johnson]

Showing your domain name.

So I am not allowed to use the server I paid for to host files that may end up here? I am required to use some other file upload site?

[iBrightDev]

So I am not allowed to use the server I paid for to host files that may end up here? I am required to use some other file upload site?

you can put them on my server Devin ;) oh wait, then you might be promoting me. never mind.

sorry man, i give up, all mighty Jan is never wrong...
ever

**EDIT**
Sorry if this seems to blunt for you, but, i just dont believe in beating around the bush, and it is obvious you dont either. so, i am not here to start a personal beef, i just think you should open your mind, just a little. might do wonders. this forum is great for many reasons, and Jan, you are obviously part of that, but, things like this make any forum no good. it really seems that this is more of a power trip at this point.

[AMC]

I have to agree with Justin and others at this point Jan, and I for one am not a 'Johnson buddy' as you so put it, nor am I someone who is rude, or recieves a copius amount of infractions.

I will not repost my last arguement, and as you chose to ignore it , I will assume that you dont know how to respond.

I have obviously wasted 1000 words worth of my time just trying to persuade you to back down on a point that common sense and reasonability would dictate is wrong anyway. Your refusal to do so is hurting the way people view this community.

If members like myself and others cannot do something so small and insignificant as post a direct link to a file on one of our own domains, then eventually, they will find another forum where they can.

2 hours or so later, Im done, not involved anymore, I don't argue with people who will hide a lack of reasoning in an instance (and an inability to back down) behind rules that while not wrong, should never have been interpreted in that manner.

Sorry Jan, I have nothing against you, and I would want you to moderate any of my communities if I thought you'd do it, but it had to be said.

[Cam.]

Right now, I think Jan is in the wrong but really, if she believes that what she did was right then we can't really go off at her... maybe if we paid to use this forum it would be different but as it's provided as a free service to us members I don't think we can really complain about what the admins do. If you don't like what admins do here, your free to leave but what's complaining going to do for us except get us more infractions or just end up holding grudges?

Either way this pans out, I will not hold a grudge against Jan or believe that's she's on a power trip etc :)

[AMC]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we hold a grudge against Jan, and I will restate my opinion that she is great at what she does.

I also greatly appreciate the service fws provides. Hell, I spend way more time than is healthy here ;).

However, I do feel that there is a general problem here, and I would like to see it adressed. I.E. I feel a more reasonable interpretation of the rules should be applied in certain cases, and that cases should be reviewed on a per-incedent basis, with thought spared for real intentions of offenders and THEN action should be taken.

Im not just going on a 'Rage against the Machine' or anything like that, but admins on any forum would do well to remember that people are under obligation to use their site - its a 2way thing :)

[Cam.]

I don't think anyone is suggesting we hold a grudge against Jan

But if we keep arguing in this thread, then it's going to happen :)


I also greatly appreciate the service fws provides. Hell, I spend way more time than is healthy here ;).

Like me :D


However, I do feel that there is a general problem here, and I would like to see it adressed.

Well, It's really from point of opinion here... From our opinion, It's wrong and shouldn't have happened but from the mod/admin position, they see it as fine.


Im not just going on a 'Rage against the Machine' or anything like that, but a community needs to value ALL of its contributors if it plans to exist and I don't want to see great members driven away ;).

I think FWS does value all of it's contributers, And I don't think it will drive any members away (Because it's too damn addictive :P:devious2:)

[AMC]

Quote:

However, I do feel that there is a general problem here, and I would like to see it adressed.
Well, It's really from point of opinion here... From our opinion, It's wrong and shouldn't have happened but from the mod/admin position, they see it as fine.

That is true, however, our opinions should be taken into account as well, and at the moment, all I am seeing is one admin sticking to her Guns without any willingness to consider different points of view, let alone act upon them.

While the administration may of course do what they like, surely the purpose of the feedback forum is so that members may voice their thoughts on site issues. Otherwise its like a government which doesn't listen to its citizens (whats the word now .... :o).

Also, admins aren't infallable ;) They know it and we know it.

[Cam.]

That is true, however, our opinions should be taken into account as well, and at the moment, all I am seeing is one admin sticking to her Guns without any willingness to consider different points of view, let alone act upon them.

Good point there ;)


While the administration may of course do what they like, surely the purpose of the feedback forum is so that members may voice their thoughts on site issues. Otherwise its like a government which doesn't listen to its citizens (whats the word now .... :o).

Dictatorship? :lol:


Also, admins aren't infallable ;) They know it and we know it.

I agree ;)

[AMC]

I wasn't going to come right out an say it :p anyway, Id like to wait and hear a response to these latest thoughts ;)

[Cam.]

I wasn't going to come right out an say it :p

:D just had to do it :lol:

[iBrightDev]

Once again Hugo, all GREAT points, but, all i have seen Jan do so far is point fingers at people like me that are friends with Devin, or have gotten infractions in the past.

this is the way she is going to prove she is right? by saying oh, you have had a bunch of infractions. oh well i say. i havent had any for a while, and most of the ones i got, i agree with. there is maybe one that i dont, and i cant even remember at this point what is was and dont care.

and like i have stated before, i DO think Jan is a great admin/mod, but, her unwillingness to listen to reason, or even come back with a legitimate argument in her defense, is just preposterous.

there is one member so far that has backed Jan, and really surprised me, but, i dont think utcrazy may have understood fully what the situation is. (could be wrong) but, every other member, and even Peo has said that they agree with what we are saying. ("I see your point AMC and yes you should be allowed to share what you've created with other members here.")

the fact is, why would it matter if the file is on Devins server, or the buttholesurfers server, it doesnt. it was NOT a link to any part of his site. We all know that the rules state no direct links to you own site, except ing website review, ads and offers, programming help, or your sig for the most part. the links we NOT to his site, just files.

Yes, Devin spams the hell out of MSN and posts links in a lot of places for the files, but, the one in reference here was for a specific reason, not just another random post. and can you blame him for wanting to share the music. it is not like it is a site promotion link. it is a simple music file that he made, was excited about, and wanted to share with his fellow friends in the community.

oh well, this is getting out of had at this point. im out.

[Johnson]

I think it's funny that pretty much every response, which are from regular members, agree Jan was wrong in this instance, yet she keeps dodging the question and won't admit that she made a mistake this time. I think it's also funny that she's alienating all these people, whom without, this forum would be a lot less active.

[Decker]

I don't like where this could go.

Can we accept that -

http://www.freewebspace.net/forums/showpost.php?p=966390&postcount=29

could have been better worded!

And more importantly, the admins have final say, the moderators have interm decisions they can make and us grunts can live with it or sod off.

But this has decended from a discussion, I personally think that Jan was wrong on one of those comments in particular, and comments from others could have and should have held it (I'm disappointed in a few).

Okay Devin posted a pic, okay got an infraction (hell if you haven't yet ??? ), he's still here though so what's the problem outside a hurt feeling that can be dumped as it's only a flaming forum post.

Next time I come round your house and take your soul!

[AMC]

Its the principle Decker, and a general feeling among many members, personally I have only posted reasoned arguements that in no way incite a grudge against Jan, and yet she still chooses to ignore them.

This has become a disagreement about the way in which policing a forum should in general be approached, and something needs to give ;)

I haven't Just gone off on my own opinion here, I actually took the time to speak to several regular members to check that they felt the same way.

EDIT: We can admit that better wording was needed in that way ;) but someone else sure as hell won't. (or hasnt, please prove me wrong :) )

[Decker]

Not just you mate I have too, but at the end of the day unless someone has the final say and that's it - back to the zombie thread :D

Let's just let it drop - is it worth it, nope.

It was 2 points for fecks sake, jeez I had more than that in one feckin week (I think) !!

[iBrightDev]

Not just you mate I have too, but at the end of the day unless someone has the final say and that's it - back to the zombie thread :D

Let's just let it drop - is it worth it, nope.

It was 2 points for fecks sake, jeez I had more than that in one feckin week (I think) !!

2 points is not the case here anymore tough Rick. It is that Jan has repeatedly dodged the situation and just made comments like oh, you would be b& by now, and stuff like that. My belief is that she has a personal grudge against at least a few of the members here, me being included. and this grudge may have been what started this to begin with. you are correct that she is an admin and has the final say, but, when utcrazy has been the only real person to agree with her, you think she might sit back and think, hey, maybe i made a mistake and Devin didnt deserve that. it is that she cant even discuss the original problem at had, and i just find that a shame. respect for her decision drops with each question she dodges. so, as Hugo said, something needs to give. i would have a lot more respect for her decision if, just one time, she could see the error of her way, and at least admin to it. she doesnt even have to reverse the infraction for all i care. i mean, shoot, it isnt my infraction, but, it would be nice to see it go too since it was wrongfully given IMO and many others opinions to. i rest my case.

[Peo]

Your complaint has been noted. I think it's time to move on, so I'm closing this thread now. If you have something really important to say that hasn't been said already contact me privately.

Public attacks on moderators is not allowed per our rules.