This is different

[Blank Verse]

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/16/strike010415

A general strike? there doesn't even seem to be any animosity or anything

[Giancarlo]

The people are misled by the stupid labor unions. As you can see I am a staunch supporter of Berlusconi, he wants the best for Italy.

[Peo]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
The people are misled by the stupid labor unions.

I don't think any person would be interested in having their rights thrown out the window.


he wants the best for Italy

In my opinion Berlusconi is an autocratic abuser of power led by his own ego and desire to control everything from the media (ownership) to the judicial system (bribes). Italians would be much better off without the corrupt system he is part of.

[Danzig]

I agree with Peo totally here. I think that Berlusconi is off on the wrong boat. He is only protecting his own interests. I hope that the Italians will get rid of that wannabe despot.

[shizzle]

Can someone explain to me in simple terms what's going on? I dont know.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Peo


I don't think any person would be interested in having their rights thrown out the window.

I strongly disagree.



In my opinion Berlusconi is an autocratic abuser of power led by his own ego and desire to control everything from the media (ownership) to the judicial system (bribes). Italians would be much better off without the corrupt system he is part of.

No. Berlusconi is trying to save the Italian economy from sluggish growth. There needs to be more medium sized businesses. I am sorry Peo, but you are dead wrong on all counts. If the country has an inadequate number of medium sized businesses because larger ones can't lay off workers, there will be problems. He isn't corrupt! Italians would be better off than corrupt communist groups that only screw up the economy with unrealistic demands.

But what do I know... my dad's side is all Sicilian, which is the core of Berlusconi's support.

[Webdude]

I dont claim to know what's going on, but I do know that a country can callapse if companies dont have the right to lay people off. What happens if a company starts losing money and cant save itself by laying people off?

However, I am sure there is a lot more to it than just that. Here in the States, companies can lay people off as needed under certain rules. I'm sure the case here has more to do with benefits. IE: Company being able to lay off a 20 year employee and not owe the benefits promised....that is wrong..

[Mika]

Well, I agree with Peo and I add more! Berlusconi's allies are : AN , ex fascists, and Lega Nord that wants the independence of the North Italy and considers the Italians of south like pigs and parasites ! Although Fini, vice president of the Italian government seems a reasonable person, he still shows his fascists roots. And of course member of his political party is Mussolini , parent of the known Mussolini. With these allies and his legal problems, Berlusconi will never be a politician and a respectable person for me! Anyway Italy was never able to have a stable & honest political scene. So no surprise for me that Berlusconi rools!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Webdude
I dont claim to know what's going on, but I do know that a country can callapse if companies dont have the right to lay people off. What happens if a company starts losing money and cant save itself by laying people off?

Bingo. Hint-Hint: Argentina: Welfare state of the world goes bankrupt. Not a drop of a dime left. That is what I think will happen to Northern Europe soon.



However, I am sure there is a lot more to it than just that. Here in the States, companies can lay people off as needed under certain rules. I'm sure the case here has more to do with benefits. IE: Company being able to lay off a 20 year employee and not owe the benefits promised....that is wrong..

Exactly... but Italy needs more medium sized businesses, and more enterpeneurs. The Italian Economy is in good shape, but this is a major flaw and it is hampering moderate amounts of growth.

Italy is not a welfare state.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika
Well, I agree with Peo and I add more! Berlusconi's allies are : AN , ex fascists, and Lega Nord that wants the independence of the North Italy and considers the Italians of south like pigs and parasites ! Although Fini, vice president of the Italian government seems a reasonable person, he still shows his fascists roots. And of course member of his political party is Mussolini , parent of the known Mussolini. With these allies and his legal problems, Berlusconi will never be a politician and a respectable person for me! Anyway Italy was never able to have a stable & honest political scene. So no surprise for me that Berlusconi rools!

Wrong, most of Berlusconi's support comes from the South.

I can't respond to any of the rest of your post, because it doesn't make a sense.

Italy does have a highly stable economy but this factor is what is hampering it. It needs more medium sized businesses.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo



But what do I know... my dad's side is all Sicilian, which is the core of Berlusconi's support.

Giancarlo, if you say that Berlusconi's core support are Sicilians then you don't know anything about the Italian political scene! The North Italy mainly supports Berlusconi! Only lately the poor people of south voted Berlusconi, oh , my god, believing they can live better! But they were wrong!

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Wrong, most of Berlusconi's support comes from the South.

I can't respond to any of the rest of your post, because it doesn't make a sense.

Italy does have a highly stable economy but this factor is what is hampering it. It needs more medium sized businesses.

What doesn't make sense ? Maybe you don't like to comment them! For me make sense ! Maybe you can't understand!

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Wrong, most of Berlusconi's support comes from the South.

I can't respond to any of the rest of your post, because it doesn't make a sense.

Italy does have a highly stable economy but this factor is what is hampering it. It needs more medium sized businesses.

And before you talk about stable Italian economy, you must first go to a supermarket to buy something , like I do every damn ----ing day! So keep your words out of things you don't know! Ok?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


Giancarlo, if you say that Berlusconi's core support are Sicilians then you don't know anything about the Italian political scene! The North Italy mainly supports Berlusconi! Only lately the poor people of south voted Berlusconi, oh , my god, believing they can live better! But they were wrong!

It is you who don't know anything about Italy. His support comes from the South. Unlike in other cultures, the poorer parts of Italy usually vote towards the right, while the North votes towards the center.

I understand, as I have been following and studying this issue for a long time.

Communist, Labor, and Socialist groups do nothing to help the situation but make it worse. Italy needs more medium sized businesses, and this legsiliation will help that be reached.

Italy will not become a welfare state failure like Argentina where the government overspent itself.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


And before you talk about stable Italian economy, you must first go to a supermarket to buy something , like I do every damn ----ing day! So keep your words out of things you don't know! Ok?

Sir, I have been following this issue for a very long time and you are the one who doesn't know anything about what is going on. So keep your words out of things you don't know!?!?! GOT IT?

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Sir, I have been following this issue for a very long time and you are the one who doesn't know anything about what is going on. So keep your words out of things you don't know!?!?! GOT IT?

I have no further comment for you! The fact that you have no respect for others' opinion and you don't ever here what others have to say, comment yourself. No more to say!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


I have no further comment for you! The fact that you have no respect for others' opinion and you don't ever here what others have to say, comment yourself. No more to say!

Hey pal... I was just explaining myself when you said I knew nothing of the situation.

Well gee, I am a little future economics and political science major who doesn't know anything.... blahblahblah.

You never respected my opinion in the first place, so I can't give you respect back.

[Jan]

Giancarlo, did it occur to you that Mika might just live in the country you supposedly know so much about?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Jan
Giancarlo, did it occur to you that Mika might just live in the country you supposedly know so much about?

Did it occur to you I have about half of my family living there and I keep in touch with them?

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Hey pal... I was just explaining myself when you said I knew nothing of the situation.

Well gee, I am a little future economics and political science major who doesn't know anything.... blahblahblah.

You never respected my opinion in the first place, so I can't give you respect back.

About what you are major or what, I don't really care! Listen one time and just give a second thought to the things! I have nothing against you, but it's your false idea of the Italian political scene, that is really problematic!

I know things very well and I'm well informed about Italy as I live here. Don't doubt for this...

Also when you'll have some more years behind you'll have the chance to have a different view of the world! So don't support from now that strongly a political view!

I remind you that you said first that my post doesn't make sense! and I asked what doesn't make sense but you never answered!

[lotsofissues]

I have family abroad, and I keep in touch. Even if the contact may seem frequent it really doens't amount to much total time. And in that time I'm not having an illuminating conversation on current events.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


About what you are major or what, I don't really care! Listen one time and just give a second thought to the things! I have nothing against you, but it's your false idea of the Italian political scene, that is really problematic!

My ideas are not false. It is not up to you to judge that.



I know things very well and I'm well informed about Italy as I live here. Don't doubt for this...

Half of my family lives there, and I keep in constant contact with them. It is not my fault I live in a different country, my dad will be moving there when I finish high school.



Also when you'll have some more years behind you'll have the chance to have a different view of the world! So don't support from now that strongly a political view!

NO! You should never say that to anybody. People should have the right to decide for themselves. And at least I know what is going on in this world.



I remind you that you said first that my post doesn't make sense! and I asked what doesn't make sense but you never answered!

It is incoherent.

[Giancarlo]

You want to know why Berlusconi is passing these helpful laws? Well here is why:

http://www.cato.org/dailys/03-12-02.html

He doesn't want Italy to turn into an Argentina, where millions work on the government payroll, and suddenly... boom. The government goes broke.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo



My ideas are not false. It is not up to you to judge that.

Sure and I can do it! You judge everyone all the times! But it's not for that I can judge you! It's because you say wrong thing, not the truth, that's the problem!

Half of my family lives there, and I keep in constant contact with them. It is not my fault I live in a different country, my dad will be moving there when I finish high school.

Hey, man! You must be joking! I'm saying to you , I'm living in Italy, I go for shopping, I take the bus, I go to cinema....I live here!! wake up!!! And I have parents in the US, it doesn't mean I know everything! It's another whole thing if you live in a country, from hearing news by phone!

NO! You should never say that to anybody. People should have the right to decide for themselves. And at least I know what is going on in this world.

[B]I said that you don't have the right to decide? You don't want to understand because are your ideas that make you blind! Don't accuse fanatic Arabs, you're a fanatic western! Too bad! Seems that you have no democratic sensibility and you have a huge luck of the European spirit![/Â]

It is incoherent.
No it is not!

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You want to know why Berlusconi is passing these helpful laws? Well here is why:

http://www.cato.org/dailys/03-12-02.html

He doesn't want Italy to turn into an Argentina, where millions work on the government payroll, and suddenly... boom. The government goes broke.

So your font is cato.org ! This really makes me laugh Giancarlo!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika
Sure and I can do it! You judge everyone all the times! But it's not for that I can judge you! It's because you say wrong thing, not the truth, that's the problem!

No you cannot because your ideas are not correct in my persepective. You cannot go around shooting down other people's ideas if you do not like them. You have your opinon, then fine. Fine.


Hey, man! You must be joking! I'm saying to you , I'm living in Italy, I go for shopping, I take the bus, I go to cinema....I live here!! wake up!!! And I have parents in the US, it doesn't mean I know everything! It's another whole thing if you live in a country, from hearing news by phone!

Oh so I don't know anything outside of the country I live in? You are wrong about that boy. I know a lot about the crisis affecting the world. From the Zaire, to Somalia, to some stupid unions in Italy.


I said that you don't have the right to decide!

You blind bat. You crossed the line there. You really did. You are saying I am not abled to come up with my own opinions. That was pass the line.



You don't want to understand because are your ideas that make you blind!

You my goodness are a fanatic. And fanatics only ended up unemployed, or terribly misled.



Don't accuse fanatic Arabs, you're a fanatic western! Too bad! Seems that you have no democratic sensibility and you have a huge luck of the European spirit!

You really passed the line with this propaganda crap. I cannot stand a communist who accuses me of not being democratic, when they themselves cannot even think about other opinions. If you are democratic then why the hell are you so quick to suppress my opinion and my freedom of thought? I got you there, now shut up.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


So your font is cato.org ! This really makes me laugh Giancarlo!

CATO is neutral.

[Giancarlo]

And I am going to sum this up here, I don't have time to argue... I have work to do. And respectively Mika, you are the most misled and uninformed person I know. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that I cannot think for myself. You are nothing better than a fanatical stalinist.

Good Day. :mad:

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


No you cannot because your ideas are not correct in my persepective. You cannot go around shooting down other people's ideas if you do not like them. You have your opinon, then fine. Fine.



Oh so I don't know anything outside of the country I live in? You are wrong about that boy. I know a lot about the crisis affecting the world. From the Zaire, to Somalia, to some stupid unions in Italy.



You blind bat. You crossed the line there. You really did. You are saying I am not abled to come up with my own opinions. That was pass the line.



You my goodness are a fanatic. And fanatics only ended up unemployed, or terribly misled.



You really passed the line with this propaganda crap. I cannot stand a communist who accuses me of not being democratic, when they themselves cannot even think about other opinions. If you are democratic then why the hell are you so quick to suppress my opinion and my freedom of thought? I got you there, now shut up.


"I said that you don't have the right to decide!" I edited this frase of mine a second later ! I placed a questionmark at the end! The correct version is : I said that you don't have the right to decide? or Did I say that you don't have the right to decide?


Don't call me boy! I didn't say you don't know anything about what is going on around the world! I said you are badly informed about the Italian scene!

It's not a propaganda, is my opinion about you! And I'm not a communist!

Cato is neutral? You are again absolute! How do you know that! Don't tell that you know about what votes for the writer of the article too?

[lotsofissues]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


No you cannot because your ideas are not correct in my persepective. You cannot go around shooting down other people's ideas if you do not like them. You have your opinon, then fine. Fine.






Originally posted by Giancarlo


And I am going to sum this up here, I don't have time to argue... I have work to do. And respectively Mika, you are the most misled and uninformed person I know. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that I cannot think for myself. You are nothing better than a fanatical stalinist.



The hypocrisy!

[Giancarlo]

Alright I have a little more time to spare so I can sum this up for good.


Originally posted by Mika

Don't call me boy! I didn't say you don't know anything about what is going on around the world! I said you are badly informed about the Italian scene!

I am not badly informed. I know.



It's not a propaganda, is my opinion about you! And I'm not a communist!

Me calling you a communist is my opinion about you.



Cato is neutral? You are again absolute! How do you know that! Don't tell what votes for the write of the article too?

Because they are strictly analysis and stick to facts.

[Peo]

Can we get back to the issue? Bashing eachother for not listening to eachother won't get this discussion anywhere.

I agree with Mika that Italy has a long history of corruption and Berlusconi succesfully continues that tradition with legal problems for giving bribes etc. The strong ties to fascists in the government is troubling as is his control of the media.

As for creating new businesses in Italy, I don't think the suggestions made by Berlusconi would change much if anything at all. It certainly hasn't created any trust in the leadership of the country and that's badly needed if Italy wants to recover economicly and create new businesses.

As for CATO being neutral: Read the fine print...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by lotsofissues





The hypocrisy!

There is no hypocracy in there. I was stating my own opinions. And I said in my perspective. And I was passing judgement but I am not going after Mika like a fanatic, if he has something to say I will respond to it accordingly.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
And I am going to sum this up here, I don't have time to argue... I have work to do. And respectively Mika, you are the most misled and uninformed person I know. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that I cannot think for myself. You are nothing better than a fanatical stalinist.

Good Day. :mad:

Have a nice day you too! You're a fascist! Luckily there are not that many people like you around! Otherwise Hitler would be our one and only leader now! You are uninformed too! People who think that know everything almost always know nothing! I'm feeling sorry about you!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Peo
As for creating new businesses in Italy, I don't think the suggestions made by Berlusconi would change much if anything at all. It certainly hasn't created any trust in the leadership of the country and that's badly needed if Italy wants to recover economicly and create new businesses.

For medium-sized industries and businesses to develop the government must remove the roadblocks such as rigid labor laws under control. This can actually reduce unemployment and bring in better more innovative jobs.

For fourty years my country was ruled by Franco, and now it is performing quite well.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


Have a nice day you too! You're a fascist! Luckily there are not that many people like you around! Otherwise Hitler would be our one and only leader now! You are uninformed too! People who think that know everything almost always know nothing! I'm feeling sorry about you!

I will abstain from responding to those lies.

[Mika]

I responded like you did before! exact same way! Like you understand!


I stop the discussion here ! Have a nice day all of you guys!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika
I responded like you did before! exact same way! Like you understand!


I stop the discussion here ! Have a nice day all of you guys!

Over. There is nothing more to discuss, we have let out all of our super-biased anger and there is nothing more to it.

We can go on bickering till the end of the world and nothing will change it.

[lotsofissues]

You began preaching, "you can't go around shooting down other ppl's ideas just because you dont like them"

Well, when someone has been debating you and giving his opinion and you conclude by calling him a "stalinist fanatic", that wasn't a tolerant comment about his ideas.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by lotsofissues
You began preaching, "you can't go around shooting down other ppl's ideas just because you dont like them"

Well, when someone has been debating you and giving his opinion and you conclude by calling him a "stalinist fanatic", that wasn't a tolerant comment about his ideas.

After I was called a dozen other things, I concluded the argument by that. You seem to have this mixed up, I was giving my opinion and he came on the direct offensive. :rolleyes:

Maybe you should actually read his posts to see how tolerant he was. He wasn't at all in the beginning. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad:

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


After I was called a dozen other things, I concluded the argument by that. You seem to have this mixed up, I was giving my opinion and he came on the direct offensive. :rolleyes:

Maybe you should actually read his posts to see how tolerant he was. He wasn't at all in the beginning. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :mad:

Have you ever been tolerant in here ? I read your posts months and I don't think you are tolerant at all!

And I didn't call you a word more than you called me!

I know, all of you other guys, that these words sound childish, but I'm desperate with the economic situation in Italy! Specially about the food and stuff! We need at least to eat! Don't you agree! Everyday I feel the "Berlusconi's correct laws" over my head and I can assure you that isn't comfortable at all!

I don't say that I don't have to eat! I'm saying that things are hard and for many people (not me) that take the minimum salaries there is a desperate situation!

[syd]

GC, don't throw around intolerance accusations because everyone knows you are the least tolerant person of all. If you don't believe me, just go ahead and ask everyone. You'll get the same response.

[Mika]

And with this I clear that I'm not saying that everything Berlusconi does is wrong! I just think that he was much better as a business man! And that he should leave the politics for the politicians (european meaning of the term)

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


Have you ever been tolerant in here ? I read your posts months and I don't think you are tolerant at all!

I was slightly tolerant in this thread, I wasn't going on the offensive. You were.


I know, all of you other guys, that these words sound childish, but I'm desperate with the economic situation in Italy! Specially about the food and stuff! We need at least to eat! Don't you agree! Everyday I feel the "Berlusconi's correct laws" over my head and I can assure you that isn't comfortable at all!

Your economy is well off... with strong growth and the following:

From World Desk Reference (travel.dk.com/wdr)

Strengths:

Highly competitive, innovative small- to medium-size business sector. World leader in industrial and product design, textiles, and household appliances. Several highly innovative firms include Fiat (cars), Montedison (plastics), Olivetti (communications) and Benetton (clothes). Strong tourism and agriculture sectors, prestigious fashion houses.

Weaknesses:

Public deficit and government debt remain high. Pressure for pension reform. Slow growth. Inefficient public sector undergoing major privatizations. Uneven wealth distribution: northern Italy far richer than the south, which suffers three times more unemployment. Relatively small companies facing strong competition in free international market. Heavy dependence on imported energy.

Read the weaknesses. That is why this bill is necessary. Italian Businesses face stiff competition.



I don't say that I don't have to eat! I'm saying that things are hard and for many people (not me) that take the minimum salaries there is a desperate situation!

If you would allow more businesses to develop, maybe you would have a good paying job. There needs to be more flexibility.

[syd]

Facts and figures are nothing but words on paper, it doesn't compare to the real-life situations of people. If you checked a facts site on BC's economy, it would say we have a booming lumber industry. We don't. It's faltering. Many layoffs!!! It would say there are great job opportunities. False again! It's really hard to get a fair job, especially with the decrease of minimum wage by $2.

[Mika]

Giancarlo I do have a job, and I think I'm in a very good economical situation!


Try to understand that all your references about Italy cannot be objective! You have to listen me , them, others, read here and there, to make a correct opinion about Italy ! You have to hear many voices in order to catch the truth!

Anyway...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by syd
Facts and figures are nothing but words on paper, it doesn't compare to the real-life situations of people. If you checked a facts site on BC's economy, it would say we have a booming lumber industry. We don't. It's faltering. Many layoffs!!! It would say there are great job opportunities. False again! It's really hard to get a fair job, especially with the decrease of minimum wage by $2.

No. That is not the case for Italy. They are one of the few economies in Europe actually sustaining growth along with Spain.

Spain, my home country (where I was born, my dad is from Sicily), has suffered extremely high unemployment. But now jobs are being created by a free flexible market.

The problem with BC's economy as it seems, is lack of diversification.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika
Giancarlo I do have a job, and I think I'm in a very good economical situation!


Try to understand that all your references about Italy cannot be objective! You have to listen me , them, others, read here and there, to make a correct opinion about Italy ! You have to hear many voices in order to catch the truth!

Anyway...

Alright, alright... I agree with you there. I will try.

But, a correct opinion? Opinions are opinions. There is no such thing as a correct opinion, just a just opinion.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Alright, alright... I agree with you there. I will try.

But, a correct opinion? Opinions are opinions. There is no such thing as a correct opinion, just a just opinion.

Yes , you're right about opinions! Opinions are opinions! But I think that somewhere there is the truth! So when I say "correct opinion" I mean the opinion that goes closest to the truth!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


Yes , you're right about opinions! Opinions are opinions! But I think that somewhere there is the truth! So when I say "correct opinion" I mean the opinion that goes closest to the truth!

Opinions can't be close to the truth, because the truth can be different in different perspectives of others.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Opinions can't be close to the truth, because the truth can be different in different perspectives of others.

This is a philosophical discussion that doesn't really fits in a discussion board! For me there is always a truth! It depends on us to see it! If we try to keep out of our thinking our cultural background and what we have heard, and we try to get really informed (multiple sources of different opinions) and simply try to think, then we can get close to the truth! But as I said before it's really philosophical! I suggest you to read Plato and Socrates and of course the Aristotelian philosophy!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


This is a philosophical discussion that doesn't really fits in a discussion board! For me there is always a truth! It depends on us to see it! If we try to keep out of our thinking our cultural background and what we have heard, and we try to get really informed (multiple sources of different opinions) and simply try to think, then we can get close to the truth! But as I said before it's really philosophical! I suggest you to read Plato and Socrates and of course the Aristotelian philosophy!

Well, I for one cannot judge if I am close to the truth. But my opinion is my opinion. What we need is some non-biased information, which is hard to come by.

I am existentialist by the way, so I do read Nietzsche and Camus.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Well, I for one cannot judge if I am close to the truth. But my opinion is my opinion. What we need is some non-biased information, which is hard to come by.

I am existentialist by the way, so I do read Nietzsche and Camus.

Here is your problem! You do fine read Nietzsche but in order to be complete you have to read other stuff too, you have to hear more people . That's the point MULTIPLE SOURCES of informations, of knowledge!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Mika


Here is your problem! You do fine read Nietzsche but in order to be complete you have to read other stuff too, you have to hear more people . That's the point MULTIPLE SOURCES of informations, of knowledge!

That I think is also where you have a problem in too... you brush off other's opinions, like mine.

[syd]

Many people here tend to disregard your opinion GC... just because it's shoved down their throats so often and so biased, that they just don't want to read it anymore.

It's like eating the same dinner day after day after day, there comes a time when you just get sick of it, even though the meal itself might be good.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by syd
Many people here tend to disregard your opinion GC... just because it's shoved down their throats so often and so biased, that they just don't want to read it anymore.

No. I do nothing of the sort. Sure I repeat my opinions, but I do not go on crusades to change other's. I haven't done that since the Bullfighting threads.

[Mika]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


That I think is also where you have a problem in too... you brush off other's opinions, like mine.

I didn't brush off your opinion and for sure I have never brushed others opinion in here or in real life! Maybe I do it some times but that 's human! Didn't do it now though! Anyway I close here! As you know it's night here in Italy and I need some sleep!

[syd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


No. I do nothing of the sort. Sure I repeat my opinions, but I do not go on crusades to change other's. I haven't done that since the Bullfighting threads.

Repeating them constantly ("I'm a republican", "I'm into extenialismwhatever", "My family is from Italy", "I am from Spain", "Queer as Folk is the greatest show ever", "Wrong again!", "I am a future political science major", "You communist!", "The GDP...")...

can surely be considered shoving it down our throats. Now, since you are so into it, you don't see it that way, but I can assure you to everyone else, IT IS!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by syd


Repeating them constantly ("I'm a republican", "I'm into extenialismwhatever", "My family is from Italy", "I am from Spain", "Queer as Folk is the greatest show ever", "Wrong again!", "I am a future political science major", "You communist!", "The GDP...")...

can surely be considered shoving it down our throats. Now, since you are so into it, you don't see it that way, but I can assure you to everyone else, IT IS!

That is your opinion.

[shizzle]

Stu is right...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ragzzz
Stu is right...

Stu hasn't posted in this thread. :rolleyes:

[syd]

You mean SYD :)

[Toefur]

Originally posted by Giancarol
And I am going to sum this up here, I don't have time to argue... I have work to do. And respectively Mika, you are the most misled and uninformed person I know. You should be ashamed of yourself for saying that I cannot think for myself. You are nothing better than a fanatical stalinist.


Anyone noticed how he does this in all threads where he get's proven wrong; but doesn't want to admit it... so he conveniently runs out of time because he 'has work to do'? :biggrin2:

I also love your insults GC. Why someone should be ashamed of themselves for suggesting you can't think for yourself is beyond me; and throwing stupid names like "a fanatical stalinist" only works more towards your own discredit.

[shizzle]

syd/stu same thing.

[syd]

^^
?????

Being called a Stalinist fanatic nearly 50 years after that guy is dead (hence, we didn't live in his time and 99% don't even care) really isn't an insult. Esp. considering most people here don't care about the history of Communism either.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Toefur


Anyone noticed how he does this in all threads where he get's proven wrong; but doesn't want to admit it... so he conveniently runs out of time because he 'has work to do'? :biggrin2:

First off I need to sleep and I got school. Secondly I don't get proven wrong in these threads. Just yelled at by others. And how do I get proven wrong? HOW THE ---- DO I GET PROVEN WRONG? This is a debate forum, not a science forum. You my friend are the most arrogant person to walk this forum.



I also love your insults GC. Why someone should be ashamed of themselves for suggesting you can't think for yourself is beyond me; and throwing stupid names like "a fanatical stalinist" only works more towards your own discredit.

I have thought beyond my own reasoning and you have no right to judge me on that particular issue.

[meow]

Self-deception - what a wonderful defence mechanism.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by meow
Self-deception - what a wonderful defence mechanism.

There is none here.

And at least I speak with intelligence.

[meow]

Must be my poor English - I never noticed. :eek:

[Jan]

Your English is fine meow. At the risk of abuse, I would say that is the most unintelligent statement you ever made GC!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Jan
Your English is fine meow. At the risk of abuse, I would say that is the most unintelligent statement you ever made GC!

I speak with reasoning. I speak with wise wording. You people do not.

[meow]

O wise man of Spain and Argentina and the mighty U.S.A (for 9 years), hear our desperate voices and share your knowledge and wisdom. :p

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


I speak with reasoning. I speak with wise wording. You people do not.

Now THAT'S what I call arrogance. :rolleyes:

[Jan]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
I speak with reasoning. I speak with wise wording. You people do not.
I wonder why you still hang out with us then?? Surely there must be much more intelligent forums out there where you can treat everyone as equals?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Jan

I wonder why you still hang out with us then?? Surely there must be much more intelligent forums out there where you can treat everyone as equals?

You people are cool... and I don't know of any other places.

[meow]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Now THAT'S what I call arrogance. :rolleyes: That's what I call self-deception, no attempt to self-deception. :biggrin2:

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by meow
O wise man of Spain and Argentina and the mighty U.S.A (for 9 years), hear our desperate voices and share your knowledge and wisdom. :p

I don't concede to mockery.

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by Jan

I wonder why you still hang out with us then?? Surely there must be much more intelligent forums out there where you can treat everyone as equals?

I believe i saw a forum where only under 10 year olds could go :biggrin2: .... you'd fit in well there GC ... only joking

intelligence is judge by the judger ... .. so you may think your intelligent but i can guarantee you 100% that there is loads of people more intelligent than you .. ( even on this forum ;) )

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by cdudeuk18

intelligence is judge by the judger ... .. so you may think your intelligent but i can guarantee you 100% that there is loads of people more intelligent than you .. ( even on this forum ;) )

When it comes to specific areas like Economics, military stuff, and Politics I excel in. Sure there are smarter people in this world in those areas, but not in these forums.

[meow]

Give me the URL cdudeuk! Maybe there are cool 10 year olds like trenzbaby. :p

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


When it comes to specific areas like Economics, military stuff, and Politics I excel in. Sure there are smarter people in this world in those areas, but not in these forums.

The smarter of us know not to say we are smarter ;)

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by meow
Give me the URL cdudeuk! Maybe there are cool 10 year olds like trenzbaby. :p

:nervous: There is more than one trenzbaby

[Jan]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
When it comes to specific areas like Economics, military stuff, and Politics I excel in. Sure there are smarter people in this world in those areas, but not in these forums.
BUT you won't give anyone in these forums a chance to prove it, you continually try to knock them down with unsubstantiated "facts" until they just give up trying to argue with you.

I commend Mika earlier in this now very off topic thread for sticking with it because this is about HIS country, he lives there, he sees both sides. And maybe when he has finished work will continue with it.

<edited typo :o>

[meow]

Hear hear.

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by Jan

BUT you won't give anyone in these forums a chance to prove it, you continually try to knock them down with insubstantiated "facts" until they just give up trying to argue with you.

I commend Mika earlier in this now very off topic thread for sticking with it because this is about HIS country, he lives there, he sees both sides. And maybe when he has finished work will continue with it.

He might be good a knowing the facts ... but when it comes to real life ... and its war crisis ... he'll feel a lump in his pants if it goes balls up :biggrin2:

Like i've always said ... i'd like to see the politics do what i'll be doing soon :)

But because i have been trying to learn so much so fast i have paid the price .. and will have to have laser eye care to repair the demage done to my eyes so i am able to activily be a member of the army instead of what i could be . and planner ....

Gonna be new .. a solider with brains :biggrin2: .... ( i was joking if you hadn't guessed ) ... even the dumbest people have brains ... but you might not know if they really are dumb or just acting ... gonna be the real test

That could be a good way to get promoted :classic2:

[Giancarlo]

Wrong. I know about wars, and what is happening in this world, and why it happens.


BUT you won't give anyone in these forums a chance to prove it, you continually try to knock them down with insubstantiated "facts" until they just give up trying to argue with you.

Insubstantiated my ---. I am speaking from an opinion here, these are not facts and that is what you people don't understand. You think your opinion is high and mighty, thusly that no one can hold an different opinion, and that is just plain wrong.

[Giancarlo]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/17/italy.unions/index.html

The strikes have failed. The government has emerged from this even stronger and now it is known they will push their plan fully ahead.

And I think six or even one million attending the strike is a gross overstatement.

[Chicken]

Let's review:


Originally posted by Giancarlo
When it comes to specific areas like Economics, military stuff, and Politics I excel in. Sure there are smarter people in this world in those areas, but not in these forums.
How does your scrawny body support that gigantic head of yours? Did they have to widen the doorways in the house so you wouldn't be trapped in one room? No futher comment.


Originally posted by Giancarlo
But, a correct opinion? Opinions are opinions. There is no such thing as a correct opinion, just a just opinion.
Odd that there is such thing as a wrong opinion though, according to you (see below).


Originally posted by Giancarlo
Insubstantiated my ---. I am speaking from an opinion here, these are not facts and that is what you people don't understand. You think your opinion is high and mighty, thusly that no one can hold an different opinion, and that is just plain wrong.
As opposed to you, who feels that others can hold a different opinion? Like this...


Originally posted by Peo
In my opinion Berlusconi is an autocratic abuser of power led by his own ego and desire to control everything from the media (ownership) to the judicial system (bribes). Italians would be much better off without the corrupt system he is part of.


Originally posted by Giancarlo
I am sorry Peo, but you are dead wrong on all counts
Ahhh, Peo's opinion is wrong. I see how you feel that others can have another opinion and why you say, "there is no such thing as a correct opinion."


Originally posted by Giancarlo
But what do I know... my dad's side is all Sicilian, which is the core of Berlusconi's support.
What do you know... ???


Originally posted by Giancarlo
Well gee, I am a little future economics and political science major who doesn't know anything....
Ahhhhh, I see, that explains it.

When you become a big expert in these fields, instead of a little future major in these subjects, you come back and maybe someone will bother to listen to you. Until then...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Chicken
How does your scrawny body support that gigantic head of yours? Did they have to widen the doorways in the house so you wouldn't be trapped in one room? No futher comment.

I will abstain commenting on this inflammatory comment.



Odd that there is such thing as a wrong opinion though, according to you (see below).

Well then I was mistaken. Because opinions are just opinions.




Ahhh, Peo's opinion is wrong. I see how you feel that others can have another opinion and why you say, "there is no such thing as a correct opinion."

An opinion is just an opinion.



When you become a big expert in these fields, instead of a little future major in these subjects, you come back and maybe someone will bother to listen to you. Until then...

Who says I can't do that now? Oh and don't be a fool and bring my age into this because that clearly shows how you argue.

I am near to finishing my economics class and already am expert in these fields.

[MN-Carl]

:rolleyes:

I would have to backup chicken :D

I was once like to GC ... i thought i was so clever i could outsmart everyone when i need to ... well that maybe true ... but i don't say it anymore ... if you do you make yourself a target :nervous:

Its best to hide your tallents if that what they are :confused2

You might have a degree in economics ....

But like i always say .... the geeks can read all the books on how to play football .... but that don't mean they can play football ;)

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by cdudeuk18
You might have a degree in economics ....

I will get one in the future, right now I am taking classes for economics.



But like i always say .... the geeks can read all the books on how to play football .... but that don't mean they can play football ;)

Are you saying despite the fact that I read economic figures I don't know what I am reading? I can now explain what the figures mean in financial newspapers, like the Wall Street Journal. I know exactly what I am talking about.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by cdudeuk18


I was once like to GC ... i thought i was so clever i could outsmart everyone when i need to ... well that maybe true ... but i don't say it anymore ... if you do you make yourself a target :nervous:


How would I make myself a target? How? By people who throw arbitrary opinions at me? Nope. :rolleyes:

[Peo]

Giancarlo, the problem is that you claim to know more than others on this forum in such general fields as "politics" or "economics". I'm two months studies away from a Bachelor of Science in Economics and you don't see me posting here that I know more than others.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Peo
Giancarlo, the problem is that you claim to know more than others on this forum in such general fields as "politics" or "economics". I'm two months studies away from a Bachelor of Science in Economics and you don't see me posting here that I know more than others.

If you are so smart then why don't you respond to any of my points with a rebuttal? Like before when I stated that government interference with the economy will only lead to disaster.

[Peo]

Again, I'm not claiming to be smarter than anyone else. You do.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Peo
Again, I'm not claiming to be smarter than anyone else. You do.

If people would offer me a halfy decent rebuttal to my statements I wouldn't claim it. But unfornately no one here can.

[Peo]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


If people would offer me a halfy decent rebuttal to my statements I wouldn't claim it. But unfornately no one here can.

If you would have been less arrogant you would not claim it at all. And people would have been more interested in debating with you on these topics.

[Owen]

I am sorry in advance Peo for anything that I say that you see is wrong, but I have to say this. IF you see fit to ban me, edit this post, or delete it, do so.

In my opinion Giancarlo(and most of the people on this message board), you are a immature, arrogant, childish, blind, brat who has many problems you have to work through. If you act like you do here in the real world, you will get no where. While some politicians do seem condescending and immature(no where near as condescending and immature as you act though), most of them can at least act civil when need to.

You, on the otherhand, say your opinion, flame the people who have a left opinion, say you are right and everyone else is wrong, then you flame people when they call you on your hypocrisy(not justifying the other people who flame however). Yet you are blind and refuse to see anything wrong with you, even when people constantly show you where you are wrong(you constantly contradict yourself).

You constantly act like you are the best person in the world and you should have the world handed to you on a silver platter. Grow up. As smart as you say you are(and you do seem smart at times), you act like my 10 year old cousin when he doesn't get his way.

After you flame, you say you are having a bad day to excuse your behavior. You complain that something went wrong. Boo hoo. Not trying to garner pity, but I have had crap happen to me that is worse than you can imagine, but you don't see me here telling people to "shut up ---- up" or calling people "dumb---." Unlike you Giancarlo, I can seperate the spheres of my life. You on the otherhand have many issues to work through before you could ever get real far. You are very uncharismatic, and how many politicians and people in high places do you see that aren't charismatic? Very few. Since we are playing the "I am great at this" game, I know a thing or two about psychiatry. I honestly suggest you see a therapist or psychiatrist.

Then again, your whole attitude on here could be just your act tough routine, since it is online, but you are a wimp in person. I don't know, but either way, you got problems, buddy.

To continue playing the I am great game, all my knowledge of economics is self-taught (imagine if I actually took some classes in economics), and I know more than I show here, because you are the only person to talk to on this message board to talk about it, but debating with you is like talking to a brick wall, except for the fact you tend to cuss people out who "diss" your idol or disagree with you. I also know a thing about politics too. However, I am sure there are many people here that know more about economics and politics than me, you not included. You never back up any of your claims except stating your opinion.

I am sure you will flame me now, call me a know it all(despite the fact you constantly act like you know everything), or say something else about me. You may try to say I am hypocritical saying I act arrogant at times, and I will admit I do at times, but I do try to hold it back. Take this suggestion. Save your time. I could care less what you think cause I know your thinking is way off.

You are now going on my ignore list, because IMO, you ruin this forum with your venom. And unlike you, I will back up what I say, because you will never see me reply to another message you make. Have fun and grow up.

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by Peo


If you would have been less arrogant you would not claim it at all. And people would have been more interested in debating with you on these topics.

you stole the words right out of my .... fingers :confused2

and owen .. why are you on my ignore list :confused:

[Owen]

Originally posted by cdudeuk18


you stole the words right out of my .... fingers :confused2

and owen .. why are you on my ignore list :confused:

Unless you are being sarcastic, I can only think of our disagreement we had when I was trying to talk some sense in Giancarlo and you mistook me as baiting him.

If you are being sarcastic, then I am sorry you dislike how I am. However, I don't flame any, at least it is not my intent to flame.

[MN-Carl]

Owen i removed you from my iggy list :)

and probally that was the reason .... i think i said don't pm me again .. and you did .. so i probally though it was gonna on forever so i probally ignored you cos of that :confused2

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Owen
I am sorry in advance Peo for anything that I say that you see is wrong, but I have to say this. IF you see fit to ban me, edit this post, or delete it, do so.

In my opinion Giancarlo(and most of the people on this message board), you are a immature, arrogant, childish, blind, brat who has many problems you have to work through. If you act like you do here in the real world, you will get no where. While some politicians do seem condescending and immature(no where near as condescending and immature as you act though), most of them can at least act civil when need to.

You, on the otherhand, say your opinion, flame the people who have a left opinion, say you are right and everyone else is wrong, then you flame people when they call you on your hypocrisy(not justifying the other people who flame however). Yet you are blind and refuse to see anything wrong with you, even when people constantly show you where you are wrong(you constantly contradict yourself).

You constantly act like you are the best person in the world and you should have the world handed to you on a silver platter. Grow up. As smart as you say you are(and you do seem smart at times), you act like my 10 year old cousin when he doesn't get his way.

After you flame, you say you are having a bad day to excuse your behavior. You complain that something went wrong. Boo hoo. Not trying to garner pity, but I have had crap happen to me that is worse than you can imagine, but you don't see me here telling people to "shut up ---- up" or calling people "dumb---." Unlike you Giancarlo, I can seperate the spheres of my life. You on the otherhand have many issues to work through before you could ever get real far. You are very uncharismatic, and how many politicians and people in high places do you see that aren't charismatic? Very few. Since we are playing the "I am great at this" game, I know a thing or two about psychiatry. I honestly suggest you see a therapist or psychiatrist.

Then again, your whole attitude on here could be just your act tough routine, since it is online, but you are a wimp in person. I don't know, but either way, you got problems, buddy.

To continue playing the I am great game, all my knowledge of economics is self-taught (imagine if I actually took some classes in economics), and I know more than I show here, because you are the only person to talk to on this message board to talk about it, but debating with you is like talking to a brick wall, except for the fact you tend to cuss people out who "diss" your idol or disagree with you. I also know a thing about politics too. However, I am sure there are many people here that know more about economics and politics than me, you not included. You never back up any of your claims except stating your opinion.

I am sure you will flame me now, call me a know it all(despite the fact you constantly act like you know everything), or say something else about me. You may try to say I am hypocritical saying I act arrogant at times, and I will admit I do at times, but I do try to hold it back. Take this suggestion. Save your time. I could care less what you think cause I know your thinking is way off.

You are now going on my ignore list, because IMO, you ruin this forum with your venom. And unlike you, I will back up what I say, because you will never see me reply to another message you make. Have fun and grow up.

I will not respond to any of this ----ing bull----. You have crossed the line Owen.

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


I will not respond to any of this ----ing bull----. You have crossed the line Owen.

what line :confused2

[Giancarlo]

On second thought I will.


Originally posted by Owen
In my opinion Giancarlo(and most of the people on this message board), you are a immature, arrogant, childish, blind, brat who has many problems you have to work through.

You also have problems that need some sorting out, if I were you I would keep your mouth shut.



If you act like you do here in the real world, you will get no where. While some politicians do seem condescending and immature(no where near as condescending and immature as you act though), most of them can at least act civil when need to.

And when was I acting uncivil? I wanted this thread to be left, and it was until somebody responded to it. It is you who is being uncivil. Goodness, do not use big words you don't understand Owen. That is unacceptable.



You, on the otherhand, say your opinion, flame the people who have a left opinion,

I do not.



say you are right and everyone else is wrong, then you flame people when they call you on your hypocrisy(not justifying the other people who flame however).

I do not.



Yet you are blind and refuse to see anything wrong with you, even when people constantly show you where you are wrong(you constantly contradict yourself).

I do not ----ing contradict myself now or ever. You are trying to ruin my name, which is unacceptable.



You constantly act like you are the best person in the world and you should have the world handed to you on a silver platter. Grow up. As smart as you say you are(and you do seem smart at times), you act like my 10 year old cousin when he doesn't get his way.

And you are the same.



After you flame, you say you are having a bad day to excuse your behavior.

Once maybe twice. But I was incited again, and again by the same people here. Well I will say this: You do not know who you are dealing with. It was you who turned this little problem into a powderkeg, and it is you who are to blame. You are the most wretched impudent snobs I know, and I am certainly glad to realize I know nobody like you.



You complain that something went wrong.

And I have all right to.


Not trying to garner pity, but I have had crap happen to me that is worse than you can imagine, but you don't see me here telling people to "shut up ---- up" or calling people "dumb---."

I deny that, except on the fact that I was incited by the same people here.



Unlike you Giancarlo, I can seperate the spheres of my life.

I respectively say you cannot.



You on the otherhand have many issues to work through before you could ever get real far.

And so do you.



You are very uncharismatic

You don't know me, you are just a wretched snob.



, and how many politicians and people in high places do you see that aren't charismatic? Very few. Since we are playing the "I am great at this" game, I know a thing or two about psychiatry. I honestly suggest you see a therapist or psychiatrist.

I am charismatic. And you don't know the damn meaning of the word. So quite using big words you don't know the meaning of! It just makes you look stupid.



Then again, your whole attitude on here could be just your act tough routine, since it is online, but you are a wimp in person. I don't know, but either way, you got problems, buddy.

And you are a fool.



To continue playing the I am great game, all my knowledge of economics is self-taught (imagine if I actually took some classes in economics), and I know more than I show here, because you are the only person to talk to on this message board to talk about it, but debating with you is like talking to a brick wall, except for the fact you tend to cuss people out who "diss" your idol or disagree with you.

I will not respond to these repetitions of the falsehoods that have been stated here. I will not continue with this utter nonsense in allowing me to be defeated by one who cannot even imagine what this world is like.



I also know a thing about politics too. However, I am sure there are many people here that know more about economics and politics than me, you not included. You never back up any of your claims except stating your opinion.

I do back up my claims, and you never do. Neither does anybody here. I have stated evidence from the CATO insititute, you can find the link on my website. You on the other have shown nothing to back up any claims. And the same with everybody else here.



I am sure you will flame me now, call me a know it all(despite the fact you constantly act like you know everything), or say something else about me. You may try to say I am hypocritical saying I act arrogant at times, and I will admit I do at times, but I do try to hold it back. Take this suggestion. Save your time. I could care less what you think cause I know your thinking is way off.


I will not respond to this nonsense, absurd, and idiotical claims. I will abstain from saying anything beyond this post.



You are now going on my ignore list, because IMO, you ruin this forum with your venom. And unlike you, I will back up what I say, because you will never see me reply to another message you make. Have fun and grow up.

You back up nothing! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! You are nothing more than an impudent snob... you are just horrible. You claim that you can back up your stupid little assumptions? I stated the CATO insititute website, and you have stated NOTHING!

You are now on my ignore list, because of your stupidty, ignorance and downright idiocy.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by cdudeuk18


what line :confused2

Stupidity shows itself again.

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Stupidity shows itself again.

If you think i am stupid ... then you are the stupid person :)

I was watching you type that post above .. it took you 10 mins ..

Iyou crossed the line which you think owen has crossed months ago ...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by cdudeuk18


If you think i am stupid ... then you are the stupid person :)

You are the stupid person. I am not.



I was watching you type that post above .. it took you 10 mins ..

So?



Iyou crossed the line which you think owen has crossed months ago ...

What? I only speak english, not gibberish.

[Giancarlo]

I have here evidence proving that a free market system styled on that of Ronald Reagan's ideals is the only system that works. As all you were asking for.

Link:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-261.html



In 1981 Ronald Reagan entered the White House and immediately implemented a dramatic new economic policy agenda for the country that was dubbed "Reaganomics." [5] Reaganomics consisted of four key elements to reverse the high-inflation, slow-growth economic record of the 1970s: (1) a restrictive monetary policy designed to stabilize the value of the dollar and end runaway inflation; (2) a 25 percent across-the-board tax cut enacted (The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981) designed to spur savings, investment, work, and economic efficiency; (3) a promise to balance the budget through domestic spending restraint; and (4) an agenda to roll back government regulation.

Clearly, some of those goals were accomplished; others were not. The most objective way to assess whether the policies were a success is to examine the economic evidence for the Reagan years once the policies were implemented.

There is some disagreement about what date should be used to measure the economic starting point of the Reagan era. A common ploy of Reagan's critics is to measure the economy's performance from 1979 to 1989 and falsely describe the record over this period as "the Reagan years." For example, in 1991 the Democrats on the Joint Economic Committee of Congress released a report entitled "Falling Behind: The Growing Income Gap in America," which purportedly proves that the victims of Reaganomics were the least affluent Americans. The report concluded that "families in the lowest forty percent of the income distribution actually had lower real incomes on average in 1989 than they did in 1979." Upon closer inspection, however, what the income data really show is that when Jimmy Carter's economic policies were in effect, family incomes plummeted by 9 percent, but that after Reagan's economic policies took effect (1982-89), family incomes rose by 11 percent. In the Joint Economic Committee report, Reaganomics is blamed for the poor performance of the economy under Carter. Ronald Reagan had many seemingly magical qualities, but his policies were never able to influence the economic direction of the nation at least two years before they took effect. Some of Reagan's supporters, on the other hand, define the Reagan years as only the seven years of economic expansion, 1983-89, while conveniently omitting the recession years of 1981 and 1982. [6]

There are two defensible methods of measuring the performance of the economy on Reagan's watch. One method is to examine the economic record from the month Reagan formally took office, January 1981, through the month he left the White House, January 1989.

An alternative approach is to allow a one-year lag for the policy changes to be enacted and take effect on the economy. Reagan's tax cuts were not even passed by Congress until midsummer of 1981 and did not begin to take effect until October 1, 1981. His first budget proposal was for fiscal year 1982. Hence, if we define the beginning of the Reagan years as the first full year when the policies were in effect, the eight years in which Reagan's policies were in effect were 1982-89. This latter approach seems to provide a more accurate gauge of the economy's reaction to the change in policies Reagan enacted in 1981, and for this reason we adopt this as the standard for analysis in this study--that is, we measure the economic effects of Reagan policies beginning with January 1982 and using 1981 as the base year of comparison. (This still picks up the deep recession of the early 1980s.) For those who are unsatisfied with this method of measuring the Reagan record, in Table 1 we present the data both ways: first, from the month Reagan entered office through the month he left office, and second, with a one-year lag to adjust for the timing of the policy changes. The results do not differ substantially regardless of which dates are used.

Just as controversial is the issue of when the Reagan era ended. Again, Reagan's political foes often describe the entire 12 years of the Reagan and Bush administrations as the "Reagan years." [7] At first blush this seems logical: two Republican administrations in succession would normally suggest a continuation of policy from one to the other. Yet the real and dramatic shift in economic policy in Washington occurred not in 1993, with the start of the Clinton administration, but rather in 1990, with George Bush's repudiation of his "no new taxes" pledge that led to both the enactment of a large anti-supply-side tax increase and a flurry of legislation--from the Clean Air Act amendments, to the Civil Rights Act of 1991, to the Americans with Disabilities Act--that began the reregulation of America in the 1990s. [8] Indeed, the Clinton economic program in most respects has been closest to that of George Bush, particularly with respect to the direction of fiscal policy.

In sum, we delineate two years as marking turning points in economic policy in the United States: 1981 and 1990. Because these two years represent dramatic policy shifts, they provide a convenient and unique laboratory-like testing ground for assessing the success or failure of Reaganomics. In this study we compare the economic performance in the pre-Reagan years (1974-81), the Reagan years (1981-89), and the post-Reagan years (1989-95). [9]

For fiscal variables examined at the end of this report, there is much less controversy over the start and the end of the Reagan presidency. Reagan's first budget was for fiscal 1982 (not 1981), and his last budget was for fiscal 1989. [10]

Table 1 contrasts side by side the economy's performance for the three periods of analysis--1974-81, 1981-89, and 1989-95--for 10 key variables. We measure the change in each economic variable from the start of the period through the end and present the annualized change. [11] On 8 of the 10 key variables, the Reagan record unambiguously outperformed the records of the pre- and post-Reagan years. The two exceptions were the savings rate, which declined in the Reagan years at a faster rate than in the pre- and post-Reagan years, and productivity, which grew faster in the pre-Reagan years but slower in the post-Reagan years. [12] The following is a summary for each of the 10 variables:

Economic Growth. The average annual growth rate of real gross domestic product (GDP) from 1981 to 1989 was 3.2 percent per year, compared with 2.8 percent from 1974 to 1981 and 2.1 percent from 1989 to 1995. The 3.2 percent growth rate for the Reagan years includes the recession of the early 1980s, which was a side effect of reversing Carter's high-inflation policies, and the seven expansion years, 1983-89. During the economic expansion alone, the economy grew by a robust annual rate of 3.8 percent. By the end of the Reagan years, the American economy was almost one-third larger than it was when they began. [13] Figure 1 shows the economic growth rate by president since World War II. That rate was higher in the 1980s than in the 1950s and 1970s but was substantially lower than the rapid economic growth rate of more than 4 percent per year in the 1960s. The Kennedy income tax rate cuts of 30 percent that were enacted in 1964 generated several years of 5 percent annual real growth.

Economic Growth per Working-Age Adult. When we adjust the economic growth rates to take account of demographic changes, we find that the expansion in the Reagan years looks even better and that the 1970s' performance looks worse. GDP growth per adult aged 20-64 in the Reagan years grew twice as rapidly, on average, as it did in the pre- and post-Reagan years.

Median Household Incomes. Real median household income rose by $4,000 in the Reagan years--from $37,868 in 1981 to $42,049 in 1989, as shown in Figure 2. This improvement was a stark reversal of the income trends in the late 1970s and the 1990s: median family income was unchanged in the eight pre-Reagan years, and incomes have fallen by $1,438 in the anti-supply-side 1990s, following the 1990 and 1993 tax hikes. [14] Most of the declines in take-home pay occurred on George Bush's watch. Under Bill Clinton's tenure, there has been zero income growth in median household income.

Employment. From 1981 through 1989 the U.S. economy produced 17 million new jobs, or roughly 2 million new jobs each year. Contrary to the Clinton administration's claims of vast job gains in the 1990s, the United States has averaged only 1.3 million new jobs per year in the post-Reagan years. The labor force United States has averaged only 1.3 million new jobs expanded by 1.7 percent per year between 1981 and 1989, but by just 1.2 percent per year between 1990 and 1995. [15]

[Giancarlo]

Unemployment Rate. When Reagan took office in 1981, the unemployment rate was 7.6 percent. In the recession of 1981-82, that rate peaked at 9.7 percent, but it fell continuously for the next seven years. When Reagan left office, the unemployment rate was 5.5 percent. This reduction in joblessness was a clear triumph of the Reagan program. Figure 3 shows that in the pre-Reagan years, the unemployment rate trended upward; in the Reagan years, the unemployment rate trended downward; and in the post-Reagan years, the unemployment rate has fluctuated up and down but today remains virtually unchanged from the 1989 rate.

Productivity. For real wages to rise, productivity must rise. Over the past 30 years there has been a secular downward trend in U.S. productivity growth. Under Reagan, productivity grew at a 1.5 percent annual rate, as shown in Figure 4. This was lower than in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s but much higher than in the post-Reagan years. Under Clinton, productivity has increased at an annual rate of just 0.3 percent per year--the worst presidential performance since that of Herbert Hoover.

Inflation. The central economic evil that Ronald Reagan inherited in 1981 from Jimmy Carter was three years of double-digit inflation. In 1980 the consumer price index (CPI) rose to 13.5 percent. By Reagan's second year in office, the inflation rate fell by more than half to 6.2 percent. In 1988, Reagan's last year in office, the CPI had fallen to 4.1 percent. Figure 5 shows the inflation and interest rate trend.

Interest Rates. In 1980 the interest rate on a 30-year mortgage was 15 percent; this rate rose to its all-time peak of 18.9 percent in 1981. The prime rate steadily fell over the subsequent six years to a low of 8.2 percent in 1987 as the inflationary expectation component of interest rates fell sharply. The prime rate hit its 20-year low in 1993 at 6.0 percent. The Treasury Bill rate also fell dramatically in the 1980s--from 14 percent in 1981 to 7 percent in 1988. In the 1990s, interest rates have continued to migrate gradually downward, as shown in Figure 5.

Savings. The savings rate did not rise in the 1980s, as supply-side advocates had predicted. In fact, in the 1980s the personal savings rate fell from 8 percent to 6.5 percent. [16] In the 1990s the average savings rate has fallen even further to an average of 4.9 percent [17]--although the rate of decline has slowed.
The decline in the personal savings rate in the 1980s was disappointing, but two factors mitigate the implications of these statistics. First, the drop in the savings rate was partly a natural response to demographic changes in America--namely, the baby boomers entering their peak spending years. Second, the savings rate data fail to account for real gains in wealth, which clearly are an important form of savings. The real value of capital assets and property doubled from 1980 to 1990. The Dow Jones Industrial Average nearly tripled from a low of 884 in 1982 to 2,509 in 1989. These increases in the value of stocks, bonds, homes, businesses, and so forth added to Americans' balance sheets hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth that are not accounted for in the savings rate statistics. [18]


CATO is obviously right here.

Now try to argue with the undisputable evidence I have provided, showing that less restrictions are better for the economy, country, and people on a whole.

[syd]

Oh goody... another Regean article :( How many more of these are you going to keep posting here until you realize that

NOBODY CARES. NOBODY GIVES A DAMN. IT'S USELESS. POINTLESS. SCREW OFF!

Post something that people would care about; Like thong photos of Shakira. Now that would get the fuel going!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by syd
Oh goody... another Regean article :( How many more of these are you going to keep posting here until you realize that

NOBODY CARES. NOBODY GIVES A DAMN. IT'S USELESS. POINTLESS. SCREW OFF!

If it is useless than why does it say the undeniable facts to the matter? No You screw off. Better ---- off.

And why not post something at least half smart instead of arbitrary statements?

[syd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


If it is useless than why does it say the undeniable facts to the matter? You screw off.

No, you screw off!

SCREEEEEEEEEW off :)

That article was fabricated by an evil capitalist movement to overthrow my Bolshevik revolution (May 17th on younge street YO!)! I demand real facts!

Giancarlo says: George W Bush created a tax break for the poor and prevented terrorism

FACT: George W Bush looks like a monkey and nearly lost his life to a pretzel. His children are drunks and his niece is a Tommy Hillfiger model with bushy eyebrows. And I heard he wears panties.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by syd

That article was fabricated by an evil capitalist movement to overthrow my Bolshevik revolution (May 17th on younge street YO!)! I demand real facts!

Giancarlo says: George W Bush created a tax break for the poor and prevented terrorism

FALSE STATEMENT: George W Bush looks like a monkey and nearly lost his life to a pretzel. His children are drunks and his niece is a Tommy Hillfiger model with bushy eyebrows. And I heard he wears panties.

Oh another thing I am an idiot


When you want to say something intelligent not stupid then be my guest. I will wait... I will certainly wait... there is no question about it, you don't know what you are talking about. And you know what? I got better things to do than the listen to ignorant snobs who characterize themselves as intellectuals. I do not have any sympathy for any of the fools in this world. The same world where communism has been dead for over a decade. Even the PRC has folded to the capitalist system.

There is not a doubt my mind that there is another system... there is no other system. Communism imprisions its people, and it died for that.

And the Bush tax break helped the entire country as a whole. The majority benefited from it.

Oh I didn't know you admitted you were an idiot?

[syd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


When you want to say something intelligent not stupid then be my guest.

When you want to stop being a jerk to everyone on this board, be my guest! And I too, will wait... and wait... and wait... I better get some nutrigrain bars into me as well cause I figure I need to make it to 117 years old now! Damn, that's a lot of waiting!

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by syd


When you want to stop being a jerk to everyone on this board, be my guest! And I too, will wait... and wait... and wait... I better get some nutrigrain bars into me as well cause I figure I need to make it to 117 years old now! Damn, that's a lot of waiting!

You need help. I am not going to respond to illogical people.

I am taking a break from here for the next two days... because I am going on a driving trip.

[syd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Oh I didn't know you admitted you were an idiot?

My goodness, you've figured out how to edit a quote. Do you want an arrowroot or fortune cookie? Fortune? Sure. Let's open it up:

"Baby seals eat pizza because the Orca stone his ham!"

And now, my life has changed!

[syd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


GC takes it up the ASSUMPTION

[Giancarlo]

You have problems. I suggest you go to a doctor immediately.

[Blank Verse]

I wouldn't be surprised if Syd actually got a fortune cookie that said that.

[syd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You have problems. I suggest you go to a doctor immediately.

Will you drive me there? My car is kinda crappy and will probably break down. Use your purple power and fly from Argentina to Vancouver!

WHEEEE!

[Owen]

Syd and everyone else. A suggestion. Just put GC on ignore like I did to avoid his venom unless you actaully like seeing him act immature. It has already improved the look of this message board already for me. :D

[meow]

(I didn't bother to read the last three or four pages but I need to know- ) What's "rebuttal"? I want to REBUTT! :D

[Giancarlo]

Quit acting like an idiot meow and look up the word rebuttal. I am sorry to say that many people here acting like they are taking ESL. Because they don't know what "crossing the line" or "rebuttal" means. It is absolutely hilarious.

[meow]

English actually is the second language I learnt as I believe it is for you too. I'm not dumb enough think I know it better than the natives though. ;)

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by meow
English actually is the second language I learnt as I believe it is for you too. I'm not dumb enough think I know it better than the natives though. ;)

Yes it is my second language too... but I know what "rebuttal" and "crossing the line" means.

[meow]

Oh, I have no problem with "crossing the line". I actually know what "borderline" means too, but "rebutt" - ack no. :)

[MN-Carl]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


You are the stupid person. I am not.



So?



What? I only speak english, not gibberish.

Yes i'm stupid ... i got a GCSE grades .. and i'm 14 ... i'm stupid ... yes .... :rolleyes:

Well if you was that smart you would be able to work out what i meant .... replace .... its pretty simple ... i only missed one letter and a space :)

[syd]

Oh, funny how you always have to go somewhere like a driving trip whenever your stupid little arguements run out of steam, yet you're back less than a day later?

[cheatpark]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Quit acting like an idiot meow and look up the word rebuttal. I am sorry to say that many people here acting like they are taking ESL. Because they don't know what "crossing the line" or "rebuttal" means. It is absolutely hilarious.
Ever heard of sarcasm? :rolleyes:

[meow]

I still feel this urge to rebutt. Am I abnormal? Or just an ordinary ESL idiot? :confused:

[Blank Verse]

I had to rebutt...it's a painful process.

[Jan]

So you should, you started all this :p

An incredible amount of insults given out to nearly all who contributed :confused2

[Blank Verse]

Except me! :D

[Jan]

There is still time :devious2:

[Blank Verse]

I...but...uh...everyone...look over there...disregard this thread!!!

[meow]

Very confusing reading this. Makes me wonder how many posts are missing.

[Jan]

Check back on the last 4 pages if you dare :rolleyes: All might be explained.