In this thread, I argue with YOU about abortion. [Archive]

bigperm

July 16th, 2002, 05:56

Originally posted by Blank Verse
Even if that means sacrificing the life of an innocent child? It's not an innocent child! It's a featus! It's a potential inncent child. I'm not talking about third trimester abortions here, I'm talking about when they first find out they are pregnant.

If'n you don't hold a public opinion on the matter, then I win automatically.

}:8) Supermoo

July 16th, 2002, 05:59

[QUOTE]Originally posted by anhedonia
[B]On a slightly more serious note, do any animal parents kill their children in the wild? :confused:

Whoops, hit edit instead of quote. :o

Jan

July 16th, 2002, 06:09

Originally posted by }:8) Supermoo

On a slightly more serious note, do any animal parents kill their children in the wild? :confused:
[/B]
Yes they do, but they wait till they are born. :(

Mr Moo you might like to repost your original cos I stuffed it up :o

}:8) Supermoo

July 16th, 2002, 06:14

Originally posted by Jan

Yes they do, but they wait till they are born. :(

Mr Moo you might like to repost your original cos I stuffed it up :o

Not to worry Jan. :)

< Pre-warning: Slightly morbid >

So they wait till they're born and kill them off? Or they end up dying due to parental error or lack of survival skills/illness?

anhedonia

July 16th, 2002, 06:17

My fighting fish ate their babies.

Jan

July 16th, 2002, 06:30

Originally posted by }:8) Supermoo

< Pre-warning: Slightly morbid >

So they wait till they're born and kill them off? Or they end up dying due to parental error or lack of survival skills/illness?
I have seen the weak of a litter of pups, kittens, and guinea pigs with their head bitten off. Maybe if abortion was pro choice this wouldn't have happened?

Archbob

July 16th, 2002, 06:31

We squirrels have an abortion clinic so the head-biting never occurs.

anhedonia

July 16th, 2002, 06:33

Um....yes, I'm just sending my fish off to have an abortion. :classic2:

Jan

July 16th, 2002, 07:03

Okay, it has been established that animals kill their babies at birth when there are defects, what is so wrong with a pregnant human animal who knows her foetus has defects, from aborting it/him/her?

Ben

July 16th, 2002, 07:06

[nevermind]

Jan

July 16th, 2002, 07:12

Sorry Ben, it is foetus ;) Just depends if you live in the USA or the rest of the world :p

foetus

n : an unborn or unhatched vertebrate in the later stages of development showing the main recognizable features of the mature animal [syn: fetus]

Haze

July 16th, 2002, 07:19

I do not believe in abortion myself, but that is not to say I do not agree with it. My wife and I would never do it, but I can fully understand if someone else made the decision to do so. We have had a couple of friends do so actually in the past few months and we have stood by their side 100%. Its a very big decision that will effect them for the rest of their lives.

trenzterra

July 16th, 2002, 07:22

Originally posted by Blank Verse
Even if that means sacrificing the life of an innocent child? still better than abandoning the child when it grows up.

trenzterra

July 16th, 2002, 07:23

Originally posted by Jan
Sorry Ben, it is foetus ;) Just depends if you live in the USA or the rest of the world :p
foetus here too.

jmiller

July 16th, 2002, 11:24

I'm pro choice.
Its better than bringing an innocent child into the world, if you can't take care of them.
This Pro-Life bull---- makes me sick. Goddamn right wing Christians.
People take this anti-abortion crap too far, i mean gawd, some lady in Vancouver I believe bougth a house next to an abortion clinic just so it'd be easier for her to harass them.

Canuckkev

July 16th, 2002, 11:53

I don't really have a strong opinion either way. But, I don't see how aborting a pregnancy is different than killing your own child after they are born.

There are different circumstances though. If a girl is raped, and becomes pregnant, this baby could ruin her future. But if it's a 16 year old who chooses to have sex with a guy she hardly knows, and she gets pregnant, and the guy leaves her, that's her own fault. She shouldn't have the right to kill another living human being just because she messed up.

Dusty

July 16th, 2002, 12:43

But if it's a 16 year old who chooses to have sex with a guy she hardly knows, and she gets pregnant, and the guy leaves her, that's her own fault.Using the baby as a punishment to the mother, I see. I'm sure it'll grow up in a world of love and care. And here I thought you were on its side.

The distinction that seems so clear to me but totally flies by pro-life supporters is that between a fetus and an infant. We're not killing a baby with ten fingers and ten toes and two little eyes, we're preventing a collection of indiscreet cells-- not all that far removed from a blade of grass that you hold no grudge against murdering by the millions-- from growing beyond the stage they're already at. I simply cannot see, even by the loosest definition of life, how this can be considered murder. I'm pro-choice, not "pro-death" as some of you believe synonymous, pro-choice.

Then again, how can we, a collection composed almost entirely of men, begin to imagine what could possibly be going through the minds of the women placed in situations such as this? No matter how in-tune we like to believe ourselves or how close we are to those in these spots, we'll never truly know. Perhaps it's a matter for which we should reserve our judgment, offering only our support in lieu.

syd

July 16th, 2002, 13:44

I think it's sick, sorry. I could never kill my baby. I really couldn't. And I almost did get pregnant once (I thought I was until I got a negative on the test), and not ONCE did I ever consider killing it. I wouldn't have raised it, because I'm too young to be a decent mother, so I'd have it adopted. Birth defects in the child is one thing, but be realistic, most abortions are by stupid people who can't use condoms because they're idiots. And yes, I do consider myself an idiot for that one time.

Webdude

July 16th, 2002, 14:01

Originally posted by bigperm
It's not an innocent child! It's a featus! It's a potential inncent child.

Perhaps maybe it is a potential innocent cow instead? Boy one of these days we will figure out what the potentials are. Regardless if child or fetus, it's still human. The law says that killing a human is illegal.

Oh, and what about the father's rights? Do you feel that one person has more rights than another? That you can stomp all over the father's rights to that child. Not if you swicth the choice from choice to ownership. What? You say one human cant own another human? But you said it's not, it's just a fetus. In which case, since it is not human, and I created it, I will sue and prosecute if you damage my property. I can own a piece of skin if I want to. Argue that!

Webdude

July 16th, 2002, 14:17

Originally posted by Jan
Okay, it has been established that animals kill their babies at birth when there are defects, what is so wrong with a pregnant human animal who knows her foetus has defects, from aborting it/him/her?

It's fetus, not feotus you retards :D

Now to Jan's post....nothing is wrong with that. Unfortunatly, that is a dead arguement since 99% of abortions are simply a method of birth control that's available to idiots who lack the responsibility and/or brains to use proper methods such as pill or condoms. You are saying that all 99% of those babies had defects? If that's true, we have a real epidemic on our hands.

As for the "accident" excuse. I can see it now. "Doc, I need an abortion because my panties accidently fell down and his thing accidently slipped in and squirted".

Or better yet....the things young girls try to get away with...
Doc "You didnt use protection?"
Blonde "We didnt do it like that, I swallowed"

Todd

July 16th, 2002, 14:23

WebDude brings up a good issue on fathers rights. As the father of the child should you have a say in what happens?

Other issues with abortion include...

If you are against abortions do you make exceptions here?
- Rape / Incest
- Abnormalities / Serious Health Issues with the unborn child
- Health issues for the mother where giving birth can endanger her own life.

I might have overlooked some issues, feel free to post them. For all other situations where a healthy child is likely I think adoption should be used in all cases possible.

I am however pro-choice as I know desperate women may resort to more drastic measures that may endanger their own lives if they feel the need not to have a child. I also don't feel the government should be the ones with the final say over another individuals body.

jmiller

July 16th, 2002, 15:07

Yea, to those of you that a Pro-Life, what about if giving birth to the baby posed a serious health risk to the mother? Or if a young girl was raped by her father? Then what? Should they still have the baby?

Webdude

July 16th, 2002, 18:26

That's fine if that's the case ....but of all the abortions totaled, how many are due to rape or life threatening harm to the mother. The excuse is lame.

Fact is, less than 1% of abortions are due to those two things combined.

Next lame excuse?

syd

July 16th, 2002, 18:47

Legally aborted...

Warning: Extremely graphic photo. Do not click the below link if you aren't prepared for its subject matter.
http://www.tidalweb.com/life/photo.htm

I don't think it's up to me to choose what someone should do. I would discourage someone from getting one, but I wouldn't protest at a rally or anything cause it's someone else's body, not mine. But I don't like it. I really, really don't like it.

Todd

July 16th, 2002, 19:41

There was a great letter on page 24 of this months Wired. When I read it I thought of this thread. It's from a Mr. Fred Pritzker and to sum it up quickly they had a son with Angelman's syndrome. (http://www.angelman.org/BriefDesc.htm)

He said:

"Had we known of his condition prior to his birth, I have no doubt we would have chosen abortion. If new technology suddenly allowed us to "correct" his genetic malformation, I am much less sure we would employ it. That may sound curiously inconsistent, but it goes to the heart of the eugenics debate..

Our lives, and the lives of everyone who knows our son, are changed. Because he requires more care, we have learned patience. Because he is different, we have learned tolerance and compassion. Because he has a great sense of humor, we have learned to laugh at ourselves.

If it were possible to correct all of the "defects" that make us different, I have no doubt our society would be more productive, health expenditures would be slashed, and parents would never have to endure the pain of loving a child with disabilities. But would that make our race better?"

I thought it was rather relevant to the discussion and it provides a fresh perspective on abortion because of medical reasons to the child.

Now let's hope Wired doesn't come after me for re-typing something printed in their magazine. ;)

Canuckkev

July 16th, 2002, 22:43

At least more measures should be taken to stop abortion being used as birth control. If two people who have sex feel absolutely sure they can't raise a child of she were to get pregnant, they shouldn't be having sex.

It just seems like some people depend on abortion. They should depend more on pills/condoms.

Blank Verse

July 17th, 2002, 01:45

That's a wonderful article Todd. Regardless of how they're brought up, all human beings have something unique to add to the world. How they're brought up not only affects the child, but the lives of everyone else around them. Taking that opportunity away from so many is a crime.

anhedonia

July 17th, 2002, 06:01

Originally posted by Webdude

It's fetus, not feotus you retards :D

Unfortunatly, that is a dead arguement since 99% of abortions are simply a method of birth control that's available to idiots who lack the responsibility and/or brains to use proper methods such as pill or condoms. You are saying that all 99% of those babies had defects? If that's true, we have a real epidemic on our hands.

As for the "accident" excuse. I can see it now. "Doc, I need an abortion because my panties accidently fell down and his thing accidently slipped in and squirted".

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

In cases of rape, incest, serious disabilities, putting the mother's life at risk - it's understandable for abortion to be an option. But to just say, 'Well, okay, I haven't got a condom, but if I get pregnant no worries, I'll just take a trip to the abortion clinic' is callous and inhumane.

bigperm

July 17th, 2002, 06:21

I don't like the idea of abortion as birth control, and really don't like the idea of abortion to begin with. BUT! When we make it illegal, we are infringing on the rights of those who might NEED one.

Back alleys with coathangers are not what I want for america's young and pregnant.

As far as the father's right... if the pregnancy wasn't planned, and he wants to keep it, and she doesn't... well, that's not his decision. It's a womans decision of what she wants to do with her body and her life.

anhedonia

July 17th, 2002, 07:00

Originally posted by bigperm
I don't like the idea of abortion as birth control, and really don't like the idea of abortion to begin with. BUT! When we make it illegal, we are infringing on the rights of those who might NEED one.

Back alleys with coathangers are not what I want for america's young and pregnant.

Yeah that's true, don't know how you can prevent it though. If you make it legal, then people will use it as "contraception". If you make it illegal, it makes things diffcult for people in situations where abortion is the only solution (incest, e.t.c). Even if it is totally illegal for everyone, people will just do their own abortions at home. I'm sure that happens already...

PyschoPath

July 17th, 2002, 08:12

Man, I had the best reply to this topic....I'd get banned, so fast..

Jan

July 17th, 2002, 08:28

Care to share? :p

atlas

July 17th, 2002, 16:33

Originally posted by anhedonia

Yeah that's true, don't know how you can prevent it though. If you make it legal, then people will use it as "contraception". If you make it illegal, it makes things diffcult for people in situations where abortion is the only solution (incest, e.t.c). Even if it is totally illegal for everyone, people will just do their own abortions at home. I'm sure that happens already...

I would highly doubt any couple would take the stance of not using condoms or birth control because abortion is available if a pregnacy occurs. So many reasons why this would be a problem -- problems with future conception, cost, time, emotional issues, etc. I think we can all agree people with this attitude obviously wouldn't be fit to have a child anyway.

I don't claim to be an expert on this, but I believe most are simply people forgetting, being careless, general idiocy, or getting caught up in the moment. It's not a conscious decision. Are these people fit to have a child or carry a child? No.

trenzterra

July 17th, 2002, 20:04

Originally posted by Webdude

It's fetus, not feotus you retards :D

you probably meant foetus, not feotus right?

foetus in Singapore and Australia i'm 100% sure.

Canuckkev

July 17th, 2002, 20:23

Originally posted by atlas

Are these people fit to have a child or carry a child? No.

Exactly, which is why there needs to be more education on the subject matter. If they are unfit to have or carry a child, they shouldn't be having sex!

atlas

July 17th, 2002, 21:52

Originally posted by Canuckkev

Exactly, which is why there needs to be more education on the subject matter. If they are unfit to have or carry a child, they shouldn't be having sex!

Of course they shouldn't be having sex.

However, just because someone got lung cancer from smoking cigarettes doesn't mean the hospital should turn them away. Even though people drop out of high school we still give them opportunities to get a GED and continue.

I know these examples aren't the same as abortion, but it's the same general idea. It'd be great if people didn't have sex until they are ready to have a child or practiced proper birth control, however, something needs to done when a pregnancy does happen. Force the mother to carry it to term? If she truely doesn't care what stops her from drinking, smoking, or doing drugs during that time? It's an awful situation which doesn't have an easy answer.

Pimpin Monkey

July 18th, 2002, 00:08

Pro-choice
My ex-girlfriend got a abortion when we were together (it was from me). She was 15, I was 18. She didn't want her mom to know, thats why she did it. Is that right? No, its not the right reason to do it. But let me tell you this, she wasn't ready to care for a child, neither was I. But I believe it was her right to choose what she wanted to do. I'm 21 now and have a 1 year old.

>>start off topic<<
I've been gone for a while due to some computer problems. Its nice to be back :D
(not that anyone noticed or cared)
>>end off topic<<

Webdude

July 18th, 2002, 00:10

If I was a doctor, I'd turn my own mother away if she got lung cancer from smoking. It's not like I havent been warning her for 30 years. I dont show her sympathy for all her gagging and wheezing now, I wont show it then.

As for abortion, the question in the end is how do you allow it without the choice being abused? You know the story.

1) Guys promise girls they will pull out right before the end...then oops.
2) Girls afraid to lose boy if she doesnt give in, afraid to push protection. Hopes she doesnt get pregnant.
3) Girl forgets to take pill a day or two.

In the end, they all think "Well I can abort if needed". In this case, maybe it should be legal, but require a lot of red tape to get one. Then you can educate just how hard it is to get an abortion. Legal or Medical cases such as rape or deformity get to bypass red tape and be considered "emergency" cases. Maybe there should be a special, stricter license for doctors who choose to do abortions. Perhaps requirements that the patient has to see a certain counselor before an abortion is allowed? Most women dont get abortions because they want to....but because they feel they have no other options available to them. Forcing counselor session prior to allowing abortion could make a world of difference. In otherwords, maybe doctors shouldnt be allowed to do abortions simply because someone has the money.

Another thing that makes me sick about it is that there are doctors getting rich from doing nothing but abortions. Their rates should be Federally controlled.

Todd

July 18th, 2002, 17:48

Originally posted by PyschoPath
Man, I had the best reply to this topic....I'd get banned, so fast..
Feel free to send it to Jan for review. I'm sure she would be happy to tell you if it's acceptable or not.

keith

July 18th, 2002, 19:28

i notice you make the pro-lifers like me out to be, well:

anti-Choice, anti-freedom, anti-abortion.

and you've very cleverly replaced the positive "pro" with its negative "anti" counterpart.

so, why not have the pro-choice option read out like so:

pro-baby-killing, pro-care-free-sex-with-no-responsibilities-for-one-night-stands, pro-penalty-free-murder...

or

anti-responsibility, anti-moral...

hmm? seems fair to me.

anhedonia

July 18th, 2002, 20:21

Originally posted by keith
i notice you make the pro-lifers like me out to be, well:

anti-Choice, anti-freedom, anti-abortion.

and you've very cleverly replaced the positive "pro" with its negative "anti" counterpart.

so, why not have the pro-choice option read out like so:

pro-baby-killing, pro-care-free-sex-with-no-responsibilities-for-one-night-stands, pro-penalty-free-murder...

or

anti-responsibility, anti-moral...

hmm? seems fair to me.

hehe, that's what I thought when I first read it.

And how good is it to have a debate without it turning into an argument with words like "racist", "stupid", "ignorant" and "fool" being thrown around? :classic2: