Do the warez hunters actually work? [Archive]

conkermaniac

July 31st, 2002, 03:37

The recent abuse problems on many free hosts have led many to design their own warez catcher. The most notable one here is probably WebDude's program. Many others have designed their own scripts.

Now, my question is this: do they really work? The elf has expressed his doubt by saying that no matter what, the warez webmasters will find a way to crack the security and then spread the word. Now, my thinking is that if these programs can already track down split files converted into .jpg's, it's already stopped most of the abuse. And the chances still are likely that warez webmasters will find a way through, eventually. However, as with all things, these warez hunters will improve. Just like bacteria has found a way to resist our anti-biotics, our medicine has improved to counter the stronger bacteria. I think this is a cycle that will continue.

What is your thought on this?

the elf

July 31st, 2002, 10:41

Originally posted by conkermaniac
snip snip

Just to add to my "doubt" here, Microsoft had their ant-theft software cracked, and they are the richest company in the world. A piece of software that was going to stop BILLIONS of dollars of theft, poof, cracked, gone. I’m sure they paid a good penny to have the software developed. Now of course the warez masters don't have an actual copy of the warez hunter, but most people that set off to "crack" something, will stay dedicated to the project until it's done. Don't forget, 10 heads (warez masters a.k.a. crackers) are better then 1-5 (the developers). They will just keep going and going and going. They’ll spread the word because people like to brag, for an example, 1 retard cracked an old box I had online here (online for 3 days), sent email to himself along with a few buddies as root. Well, all I had to do was read the mail logs and find out where the mail went, call up the ISP and go "hello". Crackers account CLOSED! So, yes, they will brag because they think it's cool and to get a little useless respect in the warez underground. :rolleyes: Respect from handicaps for handicaps, or people that just need to get a life. “look at me, I’m cool! I just shut down ebay, hehehehe”. FBI: And you’re only getting 10 years too! It takes NO SKILL to destroy something, it takes SKILL to create! Does it take skill to bust the little lawn dude, or does it take skill to create it?

Maybe my example was not the best in the other thread, but then I'm not out there to "abuse" free hosts so I have no idea how to "fool" the system nor do I really care. Give a warez master enough time, and you'll be cracked. Maybe not this month, but maybe 6 months down the line. And for the ones that use software to protect, I bet a few of them are cocky "I got software" and if they were cracked, would have no idea. No piece of software, I repeat no piece of software will replace good old fashion police work by the host.

Like I said before, your hunter may find a few accounts, but the ones it misses may be the big one, you know? I think too many people jump the gun by using software and thinking the problem is solved. For an example, my server monitor gives more FALSE alarms then actual failure alarms and I'm sure you people know many security systems give more false reports then actual reports. If you use it as a "find and destroy" you'll end up with a rather limited user base since nobody will trust you as a host. "They'll just delete my account, so @#%# em" or your system will cry wolf so many times you'll just send all the messages to /dev/null.

Sure you can change the software once you find a “loop-hole” but this process will repeat over and over and over. Hosts need something more then a “maybe”.

Also, I don’t really see a point why this was posted in this forum. There are more end users here then free hosts (I can count them on my fingers), and the question is aimed more towards hosts then the end user. By free host I mean just that, not “I have a resellers account and have space to give away” or “I had a free service but it died”.

Oh, and I don’t think anyone will take webdude serious when it comes to getting the script installed or just getting it for that matter. Asking for ROOT access??? Free or not, I’m not going to give anyone I don’t know or trust access to ANY server. So I guess it’s my loss eh? I also see no point in asking for such anyway due to the fact that if the abuser wants the software, they’ll just crack the server, get complete access to it and download the sucker anyway. The best and secure software is open software, not closed and “we need root access” software. If I developed such an application, I would release it into the public, let the abusers find all the holes for ME! Then patch them, so when you think of it, the abusers are helping me find the holes and patch them. In time, the OPEN solution would be more secure then a closed/blind one. Would you trust IIS (closed) or Apache (open) as your web server??

Webdude

July 31st, 2002, 11:05

As for WarezHunter, it doesnt have an auto-install (yet). This means it has to be specially built for each machine it is put on. I can promise you that none of you know how to do this. The script has to run as root, which means it has to be installed by root.

As for you not trusting me to give me root access, I really dont care. I would install it on another machine for testing purposes, and to help out another freehost and keep them from going under.....but I'm really not all that interested in putting my source on another person's servers. I have a lot more to lose than you do. I dont know if you will hand this software over to warez or go into competition with me using my own source.

Next, I am very well known in a number of places, here included. Why would I mess someone's system when I am in there as root? It would kill my rep. I'd be hesitant to log in anyway because someone could always turn around and say I did something I didnt.

As for WarezMasters, there is one way to get around deletion by WH....but I'm not going to tell you. :D Your files would be logged as "suspicious" for manual review. However, you cannot hide from it unless you find a way to hide from root, which is impossible.....and probably always will be so. I dont need to test it on another host now. I had WH turned off and letting Warez build up on WZ....and we have enough of them to do further testing. Quite a lot of them, and soaking about 20 gigs bw a day.

Oh and just so you know, warez is now hiding programs within midi, .wav, .au, and .mp3 files among others.....

Cracker

July 31st, 2002, 11:12

Originally posted by Webdude
I dont know if you will hand this software over to warez or go into competition with me using my own source.

You may be right about others handing the software over to warez, but what's wrong with going into competition? The more hosts that develop their own warez busting software, the more helpless the warez people are! I think you care more about how lucrative the product will be (and how rich you will get off of it) than about the integrity of the internet.

Webdude

July 31st, 2002, 11:20

Did I ever claim this was open source? Of course I want to make money. Why does everytime someone develops something and are concerned about competition, this point comes up? My bills arent free such as mortgage, electric, phone, internet access, etc. I have kids that when they get old enough I want to send them thru college and them have nice things. I developed this software to do that, I host for a living to pay current bills. Dont try to give me a guilt trip about not making it open source or free.

Tell me why I would install it to someone else's server "for free" to help them out before it is ready for release, to have them use MY source to compete with me??

the elf

July 31st, 2002, 11:21

Sure, you've been here for two years and lots of people trust you, but.. I don't. Not yet anyway. This is the first actual talk we've had (btw, nice to meet you :)) so I'm sure you can understand me now? When it comes to business, you can't rely on what people say (oh he's nice etc).

Well if I wanted to get technical with your application, I could. Create a new compression format, label the first line (header) or the first 10 lines as a jpg, mark the rest with the warez content. Make sure the format is compatible with browsers (i.e it loads), chop them up, make a few crappy pages and create a program to make filter the jpg crap and re-create the file. Now the file is no longer masked, or renamed as a jpg, but it (to your software) a "uncompressed" jpg with actual software within in. :D So that to your software, again, it's just a crappy site with big jpg, and when it gets labeled "suspicious" and you check it out, all you see is a high traffic, crappy looking web site. But, it's a clever warez site. :confused2

edit: still need to learn how to spell :rolleyes:

Webdude

July 31st, 2002, 11:32

Originally posted by the elf
Well if I wanted to get technical with your application, I could. Create a new compression format, label the first line (header) or the first 10 lines as a jpg, mark the rest with the warez content. Make sure the format is compatible with browers

From WarezChasers.com
The software can identify disguised file types (eg: a zip file that has been hidden as an image type), detects and identifies all files hidden within images

It detects those and kills them right away....they dont even go into the "suspicious" list. There are programs out there that let you hide programs within "working" images or multimedia file. You can download one of these images with a porgram in it, and your graphics program can open and edit the image. You can download an mp3 with a program hidden in it, and winamp, among others, will play the mp3 just fine. WH has no problem finding those.

As for you trusting me, yes I do see your point, and saw it before. I dont expect anyone who doesnt know me to let me log in as root. At the same time, no-one can expect me to install it to another freehost whom I dont know the owner.....

the elf

July 31st, 2002, 11:36

OK ok, you got me there... When I get some free time later today, I'll try think of some more ways. :D

Webdude

July 31st, 2002, 11:48

LOL. If you allow zips or rars though, it kinda defeats the whole thing anyway. Warez will just upload their stuff zipped up. We will be working on a way to determine what programs these hold though.

Cracker

July 31st, 2002, 16:14

Originally posted by Webdude
Did I ever claim this was open source? Of course I want to make money. Why does everytime someone develops something and are concerned about competition, this point comes up? My bills arent free such as mortgage, electric, phone, internet access, etc. I have kids that when they get old enough I want to send them thru college and them have nice things. I developed this software to do that, I host for a living to pay current bills. Dont try to give me a guilt trip about not making it open source or free.

Hmmm, remind me that if I ever win a 30+ million dollar lottery and I open my own ultimate free webspace host to also dedicate my time to writing a warez busting program that's "open source."

Canuckkev

July 31st, 2002, 16:44

I agree that software cannot be completely trusted to eliminate warez, manual review must be done to be sure. But, perhaps for larger hosts, it is more economical to let a few warez sites through, rather than spending hours finding them manually. I don't know, I don't run a large free host ( or small one). If the warez site is using massive bandwidth, then they stick out, and you can delete them. If they use very little bandwidth, and they are missed by the software, does it really matter?

conkermaniac

July 31st, 2002, 22:30

Originally posted by the elf

Well if I wanted to get technical with your application, I could. Create a new compression format, label the first line (header) or the first 10 lines as a jpg, mark the rest with the warez content. Make sure the format is compatible with browsers (i.e it loads), chop them up, make a few crappy pages and create a program to make filter the jpg crap and re-create the file. Now the file is no longer masked, or renamed as a jpg, but it (to your software) a "uncompressed" jpg with actual software within in. :D So that to your software, again, it's just a crappy site with big jpg, and when it gets labeled "suspicious" and you check it out, all you see is a high traffic, crappy looking web site. But, it's a clever warez site. :confused2

I thought I already mentioned that most warez hunters designed by hosts can easily catch that... :confused2

the elf

July 31st, 2002, 22:34

Originally posted by conkermaniac

I thought I already mentioned that most warez hunters designed by hosts can easily catch that... :confused2

Seems you missed the posts from webdude. :rolleyes:

P.S. I'm still thinking!

conkermaniac

July 31st, 2002, 22:45

Originally posted by the elf

Seems you missed the posts from webdude. :rolleyes:

I was just pointing it out. :rolleyes:

the elf

July 31st, 2002, 22:56

Originally posted by conkermaniac

I was just pointing it out. :rolleyes:

lol :p :)

conkermaniac

August 1st, 2002, 01:25

Well, my friends, let's not get off-topic here. :)

Have you come up with a solution yet, elf? Trust me, the warez webmasters have been thinking about it for years, and the .jpg conversion and file splitting is the farthest they've gotten. :D

Webdude

August 1st, 2002, 01:46

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Trust me, the warez webmasters have been thinking about it for years, and the .jpg conversion and file splitting is the farthest they've gotten. :D

Yeah, they arent a very bright bunch. I could tell them how to circumvent all current detection, but I wont :D

btw...who else has a WarezHunter? Most hosts use throttle controls, but dont have an actual Hunter that I have heard of. Well, I mean something like it anyway...not so much the "name".....but it's a good name :biggrin2:

invisionz

August 1st, 2002, 03:54

I'm going to go to Africa and hire myself a hunter :)

He will be heaps better than your hunter webdude, he will actually go to the warez kiddies houses and hunt em :)

:chinese2:

the elf

August 1st, 2002, 08:53

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Well, my friends, let's not get off-topic here. :)

Have you come up with a solution yet, elf? Trust me, the warez webmasters have been thinking about it for years, and the .jpg conversion and file splitting is the farthest they've gotten. :D

Ahhh, this all over again eh? Well, for starters, I never said I had the solution.. So don’t even start with the “do you have a solution bull----”, I said I'd take a crack at webdudes software & that software is not the answer to the problem. :rolleyes:

I could do all sorts of strange things, create a new format that takes each byte and converts it into Chinese text. Unless the host has a English only rule, that should work.

Ever seen those text images (forgot at they call them, you know, where they use ### & `,; to make images), anyway, do the same.

And before you all laugh, think of this. Warez masters will develop new technology to break yours. So doing one of the above might just be the key.

When you visit the site all you see is Chinese text and/or a few text images. The downloader then just pipes them into a piece of software, and bingo.

I think a better solution would be to do something like CDIWeb does, limit the CLIENT to 5 MB/day. With this solution, they could only scam 5 MB of warez a day, and disk space is next to nothing anyway.

conkermaniac

August 2nd, 2002, 12:57

Originally posted by the elf

I could do all sorts of strange things, create a new format that takes each byte and converts it into Chinese text. Unless the host has a English only rule, that should work.

I have repeated that an English-only rule for English hosts is absolutely necessary.

I think a better solution would be to do something like CDIWeb does, limit the CLIENT to 5 MB/day. With this solution, they could only scam 5 MB of warez a day, and disk space is next to nothing anyway.

...which is another suggestion which I've already mentioned in the other (locked) thread on Asian abuse. I actually was talking with Jon about that feature the day before it was implemented. I commented that it just might be the solution to the warez problems...unless they become really persistent and are willing to bother downloading over the course of 1 week.

Webdude

August 2nd, 2002, 13:20

These guys are pretty much dead, which is why I can post them, but there are many others out there. This makes a daily bw limit on free accounts obsolete.

KillerSoft - Multi WebSpace Faker
http://www.killer-soft.de/fakere.html

Of course, there are ways to stop these as well...
I will also add that they get decent traffic as well::
http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?tag=killsoft

conkermaniac

August 4th, 2002, 14:44

What is that? :confused:

Webdude

August 4th, 2002, 14:54

It can signup multiple accounts for you at various free hosts. These progs are what warez do. They use this to create 50-100 new accounts at a freehost within a couple of minutes, then upload all their stuff to them. This way they have multiple mirrors for their files. If one account is caught and shut down, or temp suspended due to hitting a bandwidth limit, they have links to the others for their downloaders to use.

So a 5 meg limit comes to being kinda useless in this case.

the elf

August 4th, 2002, 15:12

Originally posted by Webdude
So a 5 meg limit comes to being kinda useless in this case.

Useless?? Hmmm, regardless if they have 20 accounts, the *client* can only download 5 MB from the whole server, not just 5 MB from that users site. So they can link across all the created sites, if they go over the limit, their over the limit. If they move to another provider, let them deal with it. :)

Limiting the users site to 5 MB/day would be useless. Limit the client to 5 MB/day, and it almost puts a stop to the problem, unless they want to wait 2 weeks to download that piece of software. :rolleyes:

Webdude

August 4th, 2002, 15:33

Well, there are flaws in that as well. For example, if someone posts a link to an image on Geocities from here or another freehost that blocks hotlinking, I can still click the link here and see it fine because of software I run that blocks certain info from going out, which /dev/null's the hotlink block. The same goes for an end user download limit. This method is allowed in any personal firewall. So, it only works against those end user's who arent running a personal firewall. If you use an IP method, it doesnt work for dialups. They can simply disconnect and reconnect and get around it. People who are avid warez downloaders know it.

Even when it does work...what about the larger sites you host that have image gallerries someone may be viewing? They would get cut off viewing a legit site. A 10 meg limit might work though.

the elf

August 4th, 2002, 16:17

Originally posted by Webdude
Well, there are flaws in that as well. For example, if someone posts a link to an image on Geocities from here or another freehost that blocks hotlinking, I can still click the link here and see it fine because of software I run that blocks certain info from going out, which /dev/null's the hotlink block. The same goes for an end user download limit. This method is allowed in any personal firewall. So, it only works against those end user's who arent running a personal firewall. If you use an IP method, it doesnt work for dialups. They can simply disconnect and reconnect and get around it. People who are avid warez downloaders know it.

Even when it does work...what about the larger sites you host that have image gallerries someone may be viewing? They would get cut off viewing a legit site. A 10 meg limit might work though.
Well, if hosts are going to start to enforce they are going to have to be a little more sneaky then that.

When the user goes over, don't tell them. Give them a 404. Make it seem like they got caught. If you tell them "your over the limit" then they will just try to "hack" your way of blocking them (i.e. disconnect/re-connect), send the user way off base, trick them. Don't give them *any* tips as to why it’s broken.

I don't see how the user limit system could be bypassed. It's server side, so regardless of what software you use to block such information, the host could *require it* and if your blocking software does not provide it, deny you access. :D Another way to "fight" the problem would be to deny access to images that don't have a referral from the host domains, and if the referral is blank (in this case, it would be blank). Again, this is where the "tell them nothing" comes into play, if they know they are over the limit, they will disconnect and re-connect (or grab a new IP). The less they know, the better. If they really wanted to be mean, they could also slow down the transfer of the file, let's say... 1.4 K/s?? Slower maybe??

To create such a system, one would have to apply some very customized hacks to the web server. :devious2:

Anyway, like I said before, no software solution will solve the problem. Every single solution will have a flaw. If somebody wants your TV, kiss it good-bye. :rolleyes:

Webdude

August 4th, 2002, 16:24

http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_throttle/index.shtml

You can limit a directory's (and all subs) to a certain amount of bandwidth per day, week, month, hour, minute, second, etc....

Then you have a choice of what happens when they reach the limit.....such as cut them off, deny access, slow down their connection to you as you stated above...etc, etc.

I got this email from Snert today...

mod_watch/3.13 is now available from:

http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_watch/

Now has support of Mac OS X, MMAP_ANON, and better handling of canonical
server names w.r.t. ServerName, ServerAlias, and mod_vhost_alias. Please
see the CHANGES.TXT for details.

It's basically a good addition to mod_throttle. Now you get graphs of what each throttled location is doing by using mrtg. With mod_throttle, the only problem is that I havenet figured out how to wildcard directories in it, and neither has the author. Meaning you could have it monitor
www/yourdomain/public/catagory/*
Meaning it would monitor all directories within another.

the elf

August 4th, 2002, 16:37

Originally posted by Webdude
http://www.snert.com/Software/mod_throttle/index.shtml

You can limit a directory's (and all subs) to a certain amount of bandwidth per day, week, month, hour, minute, second, etc....

Then you SNIP SNIP (lol) ;)

That's only good for directories (from what I understand). I'm talking about the client a.k.a. visitor. Limit the visitor to the whole server, not limit the site to visitors.

To do the above, one would need a little more then mod_throttle You would need to re-write the core of apache to one, check and see if the user (via cookie or IP) is listed in the usage database, if the visitor is listed, add to the total usage. Once the visitor is over 5 MB, then reject, slow (if slowing, a better solution would be mod_bandwidth, not as fancy). If you wanted to combat the "blocking" problem, if the user does not have the required information to log the user, deny them access. By the time your done with all the patches/hacks, you'll almost have a new web server.

conkermaniac

August 6th, 2002, 20:54

Elf: if all this works like you say it does, then why do you continue insisting that blocking Asian traffic is necessary? The only legitimate reason I see is that some Asians abuse free hosts. This solution clearly will last, and it will take quite some time before the warez masters can figure out a way to crack this.

the elf

August 6th, 2002, 21:59

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Elf: if all this works like you say it does, then why do you continue insisting that blocking Asian traffic is necessary? The only legitimate reason I see is that some Asians abuse free hosts. This solution clearly will last, and it will take quite some time before the warez masters can figure out a way to crack this.

Can I ask you a question?? Do you think everything in life is free?? Seriously, this is more then just abuse, it’s about MONEY, MONEY & more MONEY!

If the amount is big or small, it’s still a loss. If a free host can’t recover it, they won’t be around very long.

If your not getting paid (abuse or not), you can’t pay for the traffic and therefor BLOCK/DENY/REJECT the traffic. Plus, the traffic is already labeled high-risk. If you don’t block the traffic, you’ll lose money. So you think it’s OK to lose money, how about you send me $100?? Hmmm? Like I said in the other thread, Abuse + non-payment for traffic = banned/blocked/rejected. By abuse, I mean OVER abuse, more then normal.

Quite frankly, I’ve had nothing but problems from Asian users. I no longer accept Asian users on my free service, and soon will reject the traffic and will not enable Asian orders on my paid service. I have a few good Asian users, but the cons out weigh the pros. I’m not going to “chance” accepting Asian users/traffic any more.

Why spend hours cleaning up the mess when I can prevent it in the first place. Seems silly to allow Asians to abuse, then allow non-paying traffic in. So… the host gets nailed twice, abuse & non-payment. Two of the major ingredients for failure.

Regardless if you think blocking Asian traffic is wrong, my time could be better spent helping people then fixing problems abusive users that cant follow rules create. I don’t need the approval from people that are not paying the bills. :rolleyes:

Also, I don’t want to keep saying this over and over again. It’s more then just the abuse (well, abuse is a good chunk of it), the other part is MONEY. Yes, money.. The stuff that every single hosting company needs to stay in operation. What happens when you can’t pay your rent, you end up in a box. If you can’t pay for the bandwidth, you lose the connection. I for one am not willing to pay for something when the user has no respect for it. If they think my service sucks, why create an account?? Just move along and find another host. All they are doing is making it worse for everyone else, seems they are not too bright! So, due to all the bull---- hosts put up with, they now ban.

This solution may last however, now the servers hard drive is full of the crap ASIAN abusers uploaded that ASIAN users want! So, before the ASIAN abusers can signup, block them. Block the traffic & you block the abuse.

Now, we still have the matter of legit traffic. Answer to the problem… Oh well. Until your peers can respect the rules, you all will suffer. May be mean, but so is life!

I don’t see how this thread benefits this forum, most people are here to get free hosting, not to talk about how they will get caught. The only people that have responded to this thread are people that run some sort of a hosting service.

conkermaniac

August 6th, 2002, 23:43

Originally posted by the elf

Can I ask you a question?? Do you think everything in life is free?? Seriously, this is more then just abuse, it’s about MONEY, MONEY & more MONEY!

Man, do you contradict yourself...you're blaming the ISPs for being too greedy and not bothering to monitor the abuse, when you're being greedy and lazy yourself.

If the amount is big or small, it’s still a loss. If a free host can’t recover it, they won’t be around very long.

Aren't you losing a small amount of money from visitors in other countries? I know you're not getting abuse from them, but you're still losing money.

Why spend hours cleaning up the mess when I can prevent it in the first place. Seems silly to allow Asians to abuse, then allow non-paying traffic in. So… the host gets nailed twice, abuse & non-payment. Two of the major ingredients for failure.

What do you think the last 20 posts are about? Ways to prevent abuse completely.

Also, I don’t want to keep saying this over and over again. It’s more then just the abuse (well, abuse is a good chunk of it), the other part is MONEY. Yes, money.. The stuff that every single hosting company needs to stay in operation. What happens when you can’t pay your rent, you end up in a box. If you can’t pay for the bandwidth, you lose the connection. I for one am not willing to pay for something when the user has no respect for it. If they think my service sucks, why create an account?? Just move along and find another host. All they are doing is making it worse for everyone else, seems they are not too bright! So, due to all the bull---- hosts put up with, they now ban.

The fact is that if you don't want to lose money, don't be a free host, period. I have NEVER heard of a free host that has made money. Geocities probably can break even, and so can Brinkster and Netfirms, but these are large companies on their own. But this is an entirely different matter.

I don’t see how this thread benefits this forum, most people are here to get free hosting, not to talk about how they will get caught. The only people that have responded to this thread are people that run some sort of a hosting service.

This forum is for all free hosting discussions. Because of all the constant requests, this forum has begun to sink lower and lower. The recent threads, such as this and the other one by allanh, have helped revive REAL discussion. How often do people with over 1500 posts come in here? Rarely, if you exclude Cracker and myself. We need something new.

Webdude

August 6th, 2002, 23:47

Originally posted by conkermaniac
I have NEVER heard of a free host that has made money.

Oh! Oh!

**Raises Hand**

I know of one that does!

sorry, memories of the school years :D

the elf

August 7th, 2002, 00:12

Originally posted by conkermaniac

SNIP people with over 1500 posts come in here? Rarely, if you exclude Cracker and myself. We need something new.

OMG, greedy?? I can't pay for the service unless I get paid for the traffic. If I can't pay for the service, then the service will die. I don't call that greed, if you do, then you need to go back to school and retake your finance class. I’ll give you a little business 101 here, if the host wants to break even, they can’t be spending all the money paying admins to fix problems they could have prevented in the first place by banning the problem country. If you have a sucker admin, fine. But after a while, he/she will get pissed off doing the same thing and ban the traffic.

I may lose a little money, but I'm not spending all day removing accounts either. Like I said before, 1 + 1 = 2 (2 = banned). I'm not going to lose tons of money because MOST of the abusers will be banned!

What does this have to do with free hosting?? People don't come because there is nothing more then "where can I get this for free", and to be honest, it's boring saying the same thing over and over again "look here", or "they have it". If this forum were to be dedicated only to free web space, it would have been dead a long time ago! Plus this thread has nothing to do with the user side of free hosting. 99.9% of all the people here are users!

You'll never be able to prevent abuse completely, that's why we have cops. We'll never completely prevent crime either. So, our taxes pay for police services.

Your truly hopeless on this subject. You still think that all hosts are out there to lose money. Well, the ones that ARE NOT, prevent the problems that suck up all the resources to correct. In this case, abuse. If the host breaks even or not, the host could improve the service better then paying the admin to sit and every 5 minutes refresh the server status page.

I’m not going to pay somebody to watch the server, I’m not going to deal with all the crap. As to being lazy, I have two types of users. Paid & good. The paid come first, the good come second and the rest of my time is dedicated to ME and my life. I’m not going to spend MY personal time dealing with people that break the rules. Lazy, far from it. I just make better use of my time then sitting around dealing with problems I can prevent. Anyway, I’m finished here, cya!

By the way, that solution I stated was aimed at countries where the host gets paid, yet has abuse.

conkermaniac

August 7th, 2002, 00:18

Originally posted by Webdude

Oh! Oh!

**Raises Hand**

I know of one that does!

sorry, memories of the school years :D

Oh really? Which one? :D

conkermaniac

August 7th, 2002, 00:33

Originally posted by the elf

What does this have to do with free hosting?? People don't come because there is nothing more then "where can I get this for free", and to be honest, it's boring saying the same thing over and over again "look here", or "they have it". If this forum were to be dedicated only to free web space, it would have been dead a long time ago! Plus this thread has nothing to do with the user side of free hosting. 99.9% of all the people here are users!

It's not about users needing free hosting; it's about free hosting in general. And that would include the hosts themselves.

You'll never be able to prevent abuse completely, that's why we have cops. We'll never completely prevent crime either. So, our taxes pay for police services.

That's true. We can't prevent crime. However, if most Jews commit crimes in America, does that give the government the right to arrest every single Jewish person in the country? That's exactly what you're doing by blocking Asia.

Your truly hopeless on this subject. You still think that all hosts are out there to lose money. Well, the ones that ARE NOT, prevent the problems that suck up all the resources to correct. In this case, abuse. If the host breaks even or not, the host could improve the service better then paying the admin to sit and every 5 minutes refresh the server status page.

Nobody's out there to lose money. But the fact is they lose money anyway. Face the facts: free webhosting is a hopeless business. The ones that do make money generate very little money directly from their free webhosting. A few may make some money indirectly. They fall back on their paid hosting in order to make up for the losses suffered in free hosting.

By the way, that solution I stated was aimed at countries where the host gets paid, yet has abuse.

If you take these prevention methods, you will probably get an even spread of an almost microscopic amount of abuse. Since now the abuse is gone, (according to you) we must now turn to moneymaking opportunities. But advertisers only accept traffic from US/Canada/UK. So by theory, you should block everyone else except for those three countries.

allanh

August 7th, 2002, 03:18

Originally posted by the elf

it’s about MONEY, MONEY & more MONEY!

If the amount is big or small, it’s still a loss. If a free host can’t recover it, they won’t be around very long.

It’s more then just the abuse (well, abuse is a good chunk of it), the other part is MONEY. Yes, money.. The stuff that every single hosting company needs to stay in operation.
This solution may last however, now the servers hard drive is full of the crap ASIAN abusers uploaded that ASIAN users want! So, before the ASIAN abusers can signup, block them. Block the traffic & you block the abuse.

I see this coming from the mouth of a person who said that he provided free hosting (an industry where you said would definite LOSE money ) for seven years and had been losing money from that?

Kind of ironic, isn't it?

:rolleyes:

Jan

August 7th, 2002, 03:59

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Well, my friends, let's not get off-topic here. :)

That didn't work, now I will insist you get back to the topic. You guys are going over the same things thread after thread.
In case you forgot what the topic is, it is about warez hunter type programs.

the elf

August 7th, 2002, 10:37

Originally posted by allanh

I see this coming from the mouth of a person who said that he provided free hosting (an industry where you said would definite LOSE money ) for seven years and had been losing money from that?

Kind of ironic, isn't it?

:rolleyes:

That's right smarty-pants, if you don't prevent the problem, you will LOSE money. If you don't want to LOSE money, you take action! Seems you two can't figure that out. If you open your doors and say "here", you'll be dead in 2 days.

Seems you overlooked that one. :rolleyes: You should also go back to school and retake your finance class (or hope you get one in the near future). Also, I never said I provided free hosting for seven years, so learn how to read. I said I provided hosting for 7 years.

And to Conker for the last time. I don't think it clicks in your head. Over abuse + non payment for traffic = banned. Asian users abuse, more then any other country (on a global level). So, it's a –war- between abusers and hosts. Now don't tell me you think wars don't have wounded/dead, because that's a crock. I'm not going to go out of my way to make abusers happy or to allow them to use my service. Plus, I'm not going to allow high-risk traffic on my network. Simple as that.

Ahh, the Jew story. It's not a happy day, it's WW2 and if recall the Jews were rounded up???

The free host will only lose money if they try to please people like YOU! People that stick up for countries that ABUSE, countries with traffic that is high-risk. People that think the world is a safe place, well.. It's not! If the host tries to keep a good public profile (by not banning people), service will degrade, they will lose money etc. You can sit here and call hosts racists, lazy, or whatever you want. But, Asian traffic will still be blocked! So, it does absolutely nothing for Asian traffic. The host may lose $10-20 (or more) from the other non-paying countries, but.. There not paying an admin $100/hour to fix the problem Asian users created.

Anyway, just like Jan said, it's starting to look like the last thread, and I wonder if Conker had the idea to "re-open" the last one via this thread since it was closed. :rolleyes:

cya

:topic:

Jan

August 7th, 2002, 16:21

Originally posted by the elf
Anyway, just like Jan said, it's starting to look like the last thread, and I wonder if Conker had the idea to "re-open" the last one via this thread since it was closed. :rolleyes:

And I wonder why the elf chose to continue the arguments via this thread.

Keep it on topic from this point on please or it too will be closed. And the elf need not respond to this post of mine.

Daniel

August 7th, 2002, 16:39

All the more reasons to open a debate forum. :)

conkermaniac

August 7th, 2002, 16:55

Originally posted by Daniel
All the more reasons to open a debate forum. :)

hehe...yeah :D

On the subject of warez hunters, how easy is it to crack one of them, Webdude? You mentioned that there is a way...is it blatant or near impossible to uncover? :confused:

the elf

August 7th, 2002, 17:08

Originally posted by Daniel
All the more reasons to open a debate forum. :)

If you guys want to continue the banning of Asian IP's debate, we can here... http://forum.cdnhost.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47

On the subject of warez hunters, how easy is it to crack one of them, Webdude? You mentioned that there is a way...is it blatant or near impossible to uncover?

That's a very good question.. I would also like to know about that.

Webdude

August 7th, 2002, 17:41

Originally posted by conkermaniac

hehe...yeah :D

On the subject of warez hunters, how easy is it to crack one of them, Webdude? You mentioned that there is a way...is it blatant or near impossible to uncover? :confused:

Near impossible. First you have to know linux inside and out. Then you have to know how WH works on the inside. So I'd say practically impossible for a WarezMaster who doesnt have the needed access to learn all that stuff. Then even once you know, it is extremely hard and very time consuming to do it.

Hobo

August 7th, 2002, 17:45

well if they wanted warez to continue since it brings them money and recognition chances are they would take the time.........

Webdude

August 7th, 2002, 17:55

The way I see it, it will go the way of the speed radar cops use. Just this time, Warez started the techno battle, not the good guys.

Radar---
Someone invents the radar to catch people speeding.
Someone invents the radar detector.
Someone invents a radar that detcts radar detectors.
Someone invents VG Radar Detector, which cloaks itself.
Someone invents laser.
Someone invents laser detector.
Then someone invents the laser and radar scramble/detector.
Then someone invents the Phazer II Detector which makes you invisible to all laser and radar (which is what I have :D )

That's how the fight against warez will go. The advantage Warez has is ignorant sysadmins on the host side. The disadvantage Warez will have is WarezHunter :D

ignorant sysadmins does not mean stupid, but lack of knowledge as to how warez works.