When are the Western countries going to pay?

[conkermaniac]

Well, first off, the Europeans and Americans did unforgivable damage to the Oceanic islands throughout the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries. They stripped the land bare of its natural resources, and the US even dropped atomic bombs on an island and is refusing to repay the necessary $200,000,000 (handed down by a court decision) to the original settlers for funding in order to clean up radiation, figure out ways to restore vegetation, and the horrible conditions the original villages were forced to face. The Europeans and Australians, meanwhile, stole all the phosphate and other minerals away from the land, and the people must rely on exporting diminishing deposits (if there are any left at all). I would expect that they should pay more than the couple million that they have already paid. Not to mention that the third-world countries are causing more and more pollution.

And the United States really needs to apologize and recompensate for the atrocities commited in Vietnam and Korea, as well as their interference in the politics of other countries. Since World War II, I suppose that no country as ever been more anti-Democratic than the United States, not even the USSR. The CIA assassinated Zaire's leader to put up Mobutu, who was one of the most ruthless dictators ever (never holding an election, becoming one of the richest men in the world while his country suffered greatly, with their GDP per capita dropped 2/3 during his regime). Not to mention their interfering in essentially all the Central American and Carribean countries, citing "democracy" and humanitarian aid as their reason when really they were really doing nothing but helping out multinationals. In addition, they wiped out a supposedly "Communist" prime minister in Iran (Mussadegh), though he came to power no differently than any PM in England would come to power. They also were involved in over 30 attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro, as well as in notorious plans to destabilize the governments in Chile (and eventually assassinating their leader). When is the US going to realize its mistakes and apologize? I'm guessing never.

[Toefur]

Your guess sounds correct.

Or, perhaps it might happen one day if some Western countries manage to elect people that actually care about things other than money and their own stupid prejudices.

Of course, given the way people seem to come into power in western countries; I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Meanwhile, the injustices go on...

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Toefur

Or, perhaps it might happen one day if some Western countries manage to elect people that actually care about things other than money and their own stupid prejudices.


Exactly! Now if only I was president... ;)

[deff36]

you must be communist

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by deff36
you must be communist

So if I say the US is not democratic, that makes me Communist? :rolleyes:

Most American historians would agree with what I had just said there because it is the TRUTH. You can't argue against truth. The fact is, the US honors white supremacists, like Woodrow Wilson, while secretly overthrowing democratic governments in other countries because those governments are not in the best interests of the American multinational companies located there. Citing humanitarian aid and political reform as their main goals, it really is all about GREED.

[Epgs]

Alright, you say we should repay. Then why not have Russia, Mexico, etc.... Pay us back all the money we have loaned to them. This would be trillions of dollars. We have given money to everyone. Don't complain we don't give money.

[Canuckkev]

Did I miss something? Since when has capitalism been about helping people? Strong western nations get away with whatever injustices they do, because they have the money, they have the power. The world will never be a great place for everyone.

Face it, people are greedy. It's human nature. Deal with it. Move on.

[dvondrake]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
When is the US going to realize its mistakes and apologize? I'm guessing never.
On behalf of the United States of America and all other "Western Countries", I offer my deepest apologies for any harm that our ancestors may or may not have done to your ancestors. Happy now?

What country are you from? You claim to be from anti-democratic, anti-human rights, environmentally challenged, imperialistic China. :D

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by dvondrake

On behalf of the United States of America and all other "Western Countries", I offer my deepest apologies for any harm that our ancestors may or may not have done to your ancestors. Happy now?

What country are you from? You claim to be from anti-democratic, anti-human rights, environmentally challenged, imperialistic China. :D

"Apology" usually means billions of dollars in payment. I'm from the US, but I live in China at the moment. As for the anti-human-rights issue, maybe I should tell you about the horrors in American nursing homes, where they don't feed the old people because it's too much of a hassle. And what about the US taping telephone wires to the genitals of civilians in Vietnam? Now THAT'S what I call a human rights abuse. :rolleyes:


Alright, you say we should repay. Then why not have Russia, Mexico, etc.... Pay us back all the money we have loaned to them. This would be trillions of dollars. We have given money to everyone. Don't complain we don't give money.

The net flow of nearly every single third world country flows towards the United States, not away from it.

[dvondrake]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
The net flow of nearly every single third world country flows towards the United States, not away from it.
Not true, the USA has been running a balance of payments deficit since the 1950's and its getting worse (imports exceed exports). The biggest trade deficits are with China, Western Europe and Japan. It also has trade deficits with most Asian and African countries. I think that Australia is one of the few exceptions. Go figure.

[conkermaniac]

Well, my source is from a book documenting American textbook fallacies. Where did you get your information?

[}:8) Supermoo]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
...You can't argue against truth...

Are you quite certain there?

[Webdude]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
And what about the US taping telephone wires to the genitals of civilians in Vietnam? Now THAT'S what I call a human rights abuse.

And what about our POW's there? They were treated far more cruel than prisoners we took. They would strap a man down and dow things such as hammer rusted nails under the fingernails, drill though the man's knees, etc, etc.

How about the worst atrocities of all time? Hitler and Germany. They didnt simply kill either. They tortured for fun. They would take a pregnant woman about to give birth, and strap her legs together and watch her die. Or how about the tall pointed and oiled poles they would sit prisoners on and spectate as the person could no longer hold themselves as they slid down the pole and it finally kill them as the pole come out their mouths.

What about the Spanish Inquisition?
What about what the Brits and French, as well as Spanish did to American Indians?
There's a lot more and you know it. By your reasoning, everyone would be paying everyone.

I am not responsible for what my ancestors did to another person's ancestors. Grow up and get over it. Get a job and quit expecting me to give you money for something which I was not responsible for.

[syd]

Originally posted by Webdude
I am not responsible for what my ancestors did to another person's ancestors. Grow up and get over it. Get a job and quit expecting me to give you money for something which I was not responsible for.

Exactly what I'm thinking. I assume you have no job because would YOU want to pay your hard-earned dollars for something that you had no part in, your family (probably) had no part in, and had no influence on your life whatsoever?

Reminds me of a few months ago, a group of black people were going to sue some company for using slave labour back in 1800-1850. WTF? Obviously they had nothing to do with it. Why should people lose their jobs and money and pay someone who wasn't even alive then?

Retards always wanting to make a quick buck. That's one thing about America I hate: Everyone sues for stupidest crap.

[bigperm]

Originally posted by syd
That's one thing about America I hate: Everyone sues for stupidest crap. We even have several TV shows dedicated to it. Judge Judy, Judge Mills Lane, Judge Joe Brown, Texas Justice, The People's Court... ETC

Make it stop.

[syd]

Originally posted by bigperm
We even have several TV shows dedicated to it. Judge Judy, Judge Mills Lane, Judge Joe Brown, Texas Justice, The People's Court... ETC

Make it stop.

I watched Texas Justice today :cry2:

[Moonman]

Originally posted by syd
That's one thing about America I hate: Everyone sues for stupidest crap.
It isn't only in America, it happens over here all the time, our public liability insurance premiums have gone through the roof, local carnivals and shows have been cancelled, because they can't afford the insurance costs.

Like a while ago, a person sued his local council, because he dived into the ocean, at low tide, and broke his neck. He won, as the court found the council responsible, as they did not have signs warning of the danger that diving at low tide can cause. And they guy that dived was 22 YEARS OLD, like seriously, even a 12 year old knows the dangers of diving at low tide.

But i have heard the people suing McDonalds and other fast food chains, because they made them fat. That has got to be one of the stupidest things i have ever heard.

Anyways i have to go and sue Cadbury because they didn't warn me that chocolate can harm my teath. While i'm gone I might sue Coca-Cola as well, for the same reasons. Anyone wanna join in, we could make a Class Action :rolleyes:.

Stupid People, do stupid things, and they like to shift the blame to anyone other than themselves, especially if they can make some money out of it.

[Blank Verse]

How' bout that one guy who sued a family after he attempted to break into their home but tripped on the couch and broke his leg?

Anyway, back to the point. I'm not so sure why all of a sudden you feel the USA needs to pay reparations for all the testing done in the Bikini atoll, etc, etc, , and why they need to pay it now...I think Webdude hit the nail on the head. Why should everyone be held accountable for something they weren't a part of? Dubya didn't order all that nuclear testing, he didn't drop the bombs over Japan, was not at all responsible for the Cuban Missile Crisis, etc, etc...but you want him to pay for it?

[bigperm]

This reminds me of the Chris Rock Show episode where he went around asking white people to pay for slave reparations. Some people gave him a dollar. Thank you stupid white people, you made all the difference.

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Webdude


And what about our POW's there? They were treated far more cruel than prisoners we took. They would strap a man down and dow things such as hammer rusted nails under the fingernails, drill though the man's knees, etc, etc.


That's true, but you hear that documented so much more often than the civil rights abuses that America themselves committed. Anyway, according to one famous top officer, some of the the top US military officials that supported these atrocities actually ended up being highly decorated. It's the truth that's never discovered.

And you can't forget...the Vietnamese commited atrocities against POW's. Meanwhile, the US was committing atrocities against the common innocent everyday citizen. There is a huge difference.

The human abuses in Vietnam was not my original topic, nor do I intend it to be. So let's get off this subject.



How about the worst atrocities of all time? Hitler and Germany. They didnt simply kill either. They tortured for fun. They would take a pregnant woman about to give birth, and strap her legs together and watch her die. Or how about the tall pointed and oiled poles they would sit prisoners on and spectate as the person could no longer hold themselves as they slid down the pole and it finally kill them as the pole come out their mouths.


I know Hitler and the Nazis committed far worse human rights abuses. I never said that they didn't. And I was talking about post World War II and pre-Nixon times anyway, so this wouldn't apply at all.



I am not responsible for what my ancestors did to another person's ancestors. Grow up and get over it. Get a job and quit expecting me to give you money for something which I was not responsible for.

Well, considering the people of Bikini still can't get back to their original homes, the US still needs to pay its $250 million dollars for clearing out the radiation in the area, as well as for all the suffering (after being out of their land for more than half a century) in addition to investigation into how vegetation can be redeveloped. And what about the phosphate deposits? None of the examples I gave required YOU to pay money directly to other people. It required the government to pay money to the governments of other countries. None of the examples I gave were too long ago, and the governments need to pay money to make up for its wrongdoings in the past. The government is always directly responsible for its own actions in the past. If we allow this issue to continue longer and longer, the worse the situation will get.

And don't even try to tell me that if your grandfather got wealthy by stealing phosphate from Nauru, it wouldn't affect your life in any way.

[Todd]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
None of the examples I gave required YOU to pay money directly to other people. It required the government to pay money to the governments of other countries.
I just wanted to address one thing... Whenever you ask a government to pay for ANYTHING it will in the end come from us, it's citizens. The USA is by far one of the most giving countries around and in the end that means we pay higher taxes. The citizens for the most part are fine with this, as we want to help others in less fortunate places.

So as Epgs said, don't complain that we don't give our fair share. What if after $200 million their research didn't help the situation and they were still off. Should we then give $500 million, $1 billion, more? Where do you draw the line?

Every country has a dark spot on their past here or there. I don't know the facts on some of those cases but ask yourself why any action was done. Generally you'll find the answer is for the good of the world. Compare it to the Afghanistan issue, before we attacked the Taliban, many people were criticizing the USA for getting involved with another countries government. Some people had incredibly strong opinions that we shouldn't be there. Then after the Taliban is more or less removed from the country the oppression has more or less stopped. Go ahead and do some searching on the topic: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/6185.htm

What's my point? The point is that our actions may be opposed but they are done for the good of that country / the world. Can you say the same for the dark spots in other countries history? I'll leave that up to you but remember to view the issues with some perspective. We're not always right, but we're not always wrong either. If you feel that strongly on an issue do something about it. Go raise money for them, door to door, marathons, donate money from your paycheck, contact your government to see if they are willing to help, etc.

Until I see that I usually take someone’s opinion as a gripe and nothing else. The same as those who complain about a corrupt government and yet don't vote..

I'll end my rant with that. :D

[Blank Verse]

Yes. That's what I meant to say ;)

Well said, Todd.

[invisionz]

ahh - judge judy please dont remind me, she really gets on my nerves ;(

[jw]

Without the US, China would be an even poorer nation. 21% of China's exports go to the US, which totals around $48.72 billion. The citizens don't see any of that money, it goes to line the pockets of the men in power in China. Before you start criticizing the policies of the US, look toward your own country, though you would be put in jail due to the heavily monitored media and closely censored society, so I guess I don't blame you in a way. You're just trying to get on their good list to further your life much as anyone with any sense (including sleezy politicians) do.

[Archbob]

Now, the western countries do need to pay the oceanic debts.

But as for Vietnam and Korea. We were in a guerilla warfare. You can't tell who was a villager and who was Viet-cong, innocent looking kids were armed during that conflict, so it became shoot them first before they shoot you--the only decision under those circumstances.

[invisionz]

Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports aswell...


Originally posted by jw
Without the US, China would be an even poorer nation. 21% of China's exports go to the US, which totals around $48.72 billion. The citizens don't see any of that money, it goes to line the pockets of the men in power in China. Before you start criticizing the policies of the US, look toward your own country, though you would be put in jail due to the heavily monitored media and closely censored society, so I guess I don't blame you in a way. You're just trying to get on their good list to further your life much as anyone with any sense (including sleezy politicians) do.

[Todd]

Originally posted by invisionz
Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports aswell...
Indeed, which is why countries should continue to work together and we should stop trying to place blame on X country. The past is the past, we should learn from it and move on.

If someone feels strongly with an issue or thinks an injustice has been done then I encourage them to do what they can to make it right. (Examples in my last post) Use your local media; if the USA is to blame and becomes a large enough issue the media would be more then happy to raise the issue on slow news days. Then if public pressure is placed on the politicians they will act. It's more or less the system to get results.

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Todd

I just wanted to address one thing... Whenever you ask a government to pay for ANYTHING it will in the end come from us, it's citizens. The USA is by far one of the most giving countries around and in the end that means we pay higher taxes. The citizens for the most part are fine with this, as we want to help others in less fortunate places.


Well, that's true, but the money isn't coming from you directly. While it is true that Americans pay high taxes, they're nowhere near as high as those that they pay in many European countries.



So as Epgs said, don't complain that we don't give our fair share. What if after $200 million their research didn't help the situation and they were still off. Should we then give $500 million, $1 billion, more? Where do you draw the line?


A court ruled that the US was required to pay a total of $250 million dollars, and so far, they've paid a few million of that amount. If after $250 million dollars, they still can't fix the problem, then it's their problem to figure it out on their own.



Every country has a dark spot on their past here or there. I don't know the facts on some of those cases but ask yourself why any action was done. Generally you'll find the answer is for the good of the world. Compare it to the Afghanistan issue, before we attacked the Taliban, many people were criticizing the USA for getting involved with another countries government. Some people had incredibly strong opinions that we shouldn't be there. Then after the Taliban is more or less removed from the country the oppression has more or less stopped. Go ahead and do some searching on the topic: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/6185.htm


Yes, the Taliban deserved to be removed from power, as they had very little support from the people. There weren't elected. However, if you look at Arafat and Hussein, the US continues to ask for their removal (and you know that they're hoping to assassinate him). They are leaders elected by the majority of the people. In fact, Hussein was elected with 99% of the votes, I believe. Though there probably was some corruption involved with this election, as with all elections, I doubt it could have factored into such an overwhelming majority. If the US messes with these countries, then they are going against democracy.

Henry Kissinger once said that if the US wasn't pleased with the results of an election, they would interfere.

Even if the US did overthrow the Taliban, they didn't do it because of sympathy for the Afghans (though it ended up being that way). The only reason that they did this is because the Taliban was interfering with the US' plans to eliminate Bin Laden. The Taliban had been in power for almost a decade, making unjust laws. If the US truly cared about the Afghans, why didn't they get rid of the Taliban earlier?



What's my point? The point is that our actions may be opposed but they are done for the good of that country / the world. Can you say the same for the dark spots in other countries history? I'll leave that up to you but remember to view the issues with some perspective. We're not always right, but we're not always wrong either. If you feel that strongly on an issue do something about it. Go raise money for them, door to door, marathons, donate money from your paycheck, contact your government to see if they are willing to help, etc.


I realize that all countries have their dark sides, but these are issues that continue to affect us today. I mean, testing nuclear weapons on someone else's land is a very serious issue. So is the declining phosphate in Nauru, as that country has no natural resources (because they were all stripped away when the Australians wanted to mine phosphate), and perhaps as soon as next year, we won't know what this tiny island is going to do.

My government? I can barely speak Chinese, and I don't think the US needs to pay China for anything. I'm speaking for all those countries in the world that deserved to be paid. I could try speaking to the US government as well, as I am a citizen there, but I doubt they'd listen, as they get too many e-mails a day. Plus, I wouldn't be able to get enough signatures from Americans, nor would some money do any good.

Many of the US actions were not for the good of the world. As I mentioned before, many of them were started as a result of multinational companies. Woodrow Wilson, for example, invaded the Carribean and Central/South America thanks to the multinational companies. A quote from Smedley Butler that has become famous today:



I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank to collect revenues in... I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903.


Clearly, the interests are not for humanitarian aid. The US does not have this much money to waste, and most of its actions are for keeping its status as the world power and for benefitting its own economy.

Find me proof that the net flow between third-world countries and the US flows away from the US, rather than towards. But I have seen no proof of that thus far, while I have seen a lot of proof of the countries giving back more than what the US gives them, including numerous offline resources.

And it's true that the US needs most things that are made in China. I've been taking a look at many top clothing brands, accessories, toys, machines, etc. seem to have been made in China. Without these imports, the cost of clothing might cost anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times as much, as manufacturing costs in the United States are ridiculously high. I don't think the US would be stupid enough to accept useless imports.

[Webdude]

Originally posted by invisionz
Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports as well...


Yeah, we really need all those McDonalds and Burger King toys :rolleyes:

Actually, there would be more jobs here if we made the stuff ourselves. Stuff would cost more, but that many more jobs could result in lower taxes for every individual as well.

[Canuckkev]

Something about clothing...if it is made in Western countries, not in sweat shops, it will cost a lot more, as you said. But, it will also be of a lot better quality.

The past is the past. If you have a gripe about what the US is currently doing, it would be better to voice your opinion about that issue.

[allanh]

hey, conk, just out of interest:

are you a Chinese with a US citizenship or an "American" ?

I am just intrigued on how an American keeps on attacking US?:D

[syd]

Originally posted by conkermaniac

None of the examples I gave required YOU to pay money directly to other people. It required the government to pay money to the governments of other countries.

Does government's money appears magically from a Leprechan's butthole or what? If they money doesn't come from us, then what happened to all that $1000's of dollars missing from my bank account?

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by allanh
hey, conk, just out of interest:

are you a Chinese with a US citizenship or an "American" ?

I am just intrigued on how an American keeps on attacking US?:D

I'm an American, but I'm not "attacking" the United States. I probably could find just as many problems with China, but the thing is, I don't have to tell you about China's problems, as the American media blabbers away about it all the time. They never seem to admit America's faults ever (same reason as why the Chinese media doesn't admit China's faults). People think of the US (Americans, especially) as the savior of the world, when really, their focuses were far from humanitarian. This misconception oftentimes is often farcical because it doesn't make sense. Not being patriotic? Perhaps, but I value truth greater than blind patriotism.

If you want to see another American criticizing America for its policies, try reading "Lies My Teacher Told Me". They have a website for that as well. Try searching for that book on Google, and you'll find their website. :D


Does government's money appears magically from a Leprechan's butthole or what? If they money doesn't come from us, then what happened to all that $1000's of dollars missing from my bank account?

The keyword in my post is "directly".


Something about clothing...if it is made in Western countries, not in sweat shops, it will cost a lot more, as you said. But, it will also be of a lot better quality.

The past is the past. If you have a gripe about what the US is currently doing, it would be better to voice your opinion about that issue.

Of course it will be of better quality! But honestly, who is going to buy a purse from, say, a new American brand, as opposed to Gucci? The problem is that Europeans have this market cornered, and their labor is cheaper than America as well. It would be impractical to start such a business in America. Rather, America should focus on other markets where their people can come into play and doesn't involve a lot of manual labor. And the US is doing that, which is good.


Yeah, we really need all those McDonalds and Burger King toys

Actually, there would be more jobs here if we made the stuff ourselves. Stuff would cost more, but that many more jobs could result in lower taxes for every individual as well.

Yes, it would lower taxes and unemployment for sure. However, you think any company would be willing to pay $3,000 a year for one worker when they can pay 2000 RMB to a Chinese or even less to African workers?

[conkermaniac]

BTW, Webdude, you may not need all the Burger King and McDonald's clothing, but you certainly might like Quiksilver, Nike (yes, I know of their problems), and other toys/accessories for you and your children. The fact is, the third-world countries are a necessity to keeping items cheap.

Anyway, one thing the US does do well is in the category of environmental concerns, and China needs real control on that. I can't even recycle a plastic bottle here. :rolleyes:

[syd]

Hate to break it to you, but this is the way the world works and it will never change. The rich exploit the poor and that's how it is, like it or not. You want to make everyone equal? Communism doesn't work. So appreciate the fact you have a computer and other material posessions and move on with your life.

Young idealist, get a grip on reality.

And tax dollars come directly from my cheque. I don't care what you say, that money comes directly from me. With the amount of money I payed in taxes, I could have already paid off a semester in college. Now how does THAT not directly affect my life?

[invisionz]

I scammed it off you using cyberwings2.com ;)




Originally posted by syd


Does government's money appears magically from a Leprechan's butthole or what? If they money doesn't come from us, then what happened to all that $1000's of dollars missing from my bank account?

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by syd
Hate to break it to you, but this is the way the world works and it will never change. The rich exploit the poor and that's how it is, like it or not. You want to make everyone equal? Communism doesn't work. So appreciate the fact you have a computer and other material posessions and move on with your life.

Young idealist, get a grip on reality.

And tax dollars come directly from my cheque. I don't care what you say, that money comes directly from me. With the amount of money I payed in taxes, I could have already paid off a semester in college. Now how does THAT not directly affect my life?

Well, nobody complains about the fact that the US has wasted billions thus far on the futile "War on Terrorism". Why do you object to repaying some third-world countries for past wrongs (so they at least have a chance to regroup), while you don't mind paying taxes for all these wars and mindless interfering in other countries' affairs? I mean, $250 million is nothing compared to the hundreds of billions that Bush has wasted.

I'm not expecting the world to change. I'm just sighing over the fact that the world is unfair. In fact, if you read my post at all, you would know that.

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by invisionz
I scammed it off you using cyberwings2.com ;)





Nah, you could only scam off $5 using cyberwings2.com, since they only charge that much. :D

[Toefur]

Originally posted by syd
Hate to break it to you, but this is the way the world works and it will never change. The rich exploit the poor and that's how it is, like it or not. You want to make everyone equal? Communism doesn't work. So appreciate the fact you have a computer and other material posessions and move on with your life.


No, no, no!

Of course the world will never change with that attitude. You think it's always going to be like this? You could be part of the solution to the problems in our world; but instead you are part of the problem.

Injustices are going on, and continue to go on; because people like you don't care because you think the crux of existence going to college so you can live in brick house and die.

You are rich. You make conscious decisions. You could stand up and refuse to accept the exploitation of the poor; but you dont, because you don't care.

The sooner the world realise that change is possible, is the day that change will occur.

[conkermaniac]

On a different note, I just discovered that "recycling" is possible over here, but it's not quite the same thing as the US. You basically give your recycled materials to the garbage men, and they go ahead and sell it to companies who remanufacture proucts.

[conkermaniac]

Toefur, well said! I totally agree, but the problem is, how do we get more people to care about such issues? Rich people seem to care little about the poor and continue to blame them on not being successful or just not trying hard enough. This is totally untrue. We need to make the rich people realize that even in a supposedly "equal opportunity" society, poor people are locked into a caste system. Because they were born poor, they are given access to less facilities than rich people. The worst part of this is that the education that poor people receive is also considerably worse, ensuring that they will not likely get a well-paying job. Of course, you do hear of the poor people that work very hard and become rich, but the fact is, for the most part, rich people will stay rich, and poor people will stay poor.

[syd]

You guys are ALL TALK and no action. Last time I checked, you all weren't doing a damn thing to help the poor.

[Toefur]

Originally posted by syd
You guys are ALL TALK and no action. Last time I checked, you all weren't doing a damn thing to help the poor.

Wow Syd, really intelligent.

I hate to use such a mocking tone; but the thing is that what you said is based on what, exactly?

You have no idea the things I do and have done. :rolleyes:

[syd]

So I'm stupid now? Oh really, you try and tell me that everyone who sits around and yells "Save the world! Save the poor Africans" actually gets off their butts and does it? Please. How about you sell your computer and give the money to a starving homeless woman if you really want to stand up for the unfortunate? I don't see you writing stories for Amnesty International. DO YOU write articles for them, post them on the web and try to save people? I doubt it.

Like I said, you guys are all talk. If you really want to make a difference, quit surfing the net and go march on main street. Maybe that will make a difference.

[Toefur]

Originally posted by syd
So I'm stupid now? Oh really, you try and tell me that everyone who sits around and yells "Save the world! Save the poor Africans" actually gets off their butts and does it? Please. How about you sell your computer and give the money to a starving homeless woman if you really want to stand up for the unfortunate?


Okay, some things you need to know, syd.

1. I can't speak for other people here, but I am active with my beliefs. I don't just "sit on my butt" and complain.

2. I'd love to give my computer up, I hate the things.

3. I can't.

4. Why not?

5. Because the money I use to help aid the needy is made from the work I do online. Sure, I could sell my computer to try and proove something to you; or I could keep it and make more money which will allow me to help others.

6. The reason you don't see me writing stories for amnesty international is because a) you honestly have no idea whether I do or dont, and b) there is a far lot more that can be done for the needy than "writing stories for amnesty international"

7. You only make yourself look stupid when you post things that just aren't true.

8. Why? Because I -do- march the streets and such, and; as stated above: I use the 'net to make the money that I use to help the needy.

:rolleyes:

[jw]

Originally posted by syd
If you really want to make a difference, quit surfing the net and go march on main street. Maybe that will make a difference.

What does marching on main street accomplish? If you want to rid the world of a problem, don't rely on someone else to do it for you, do it yourself. You aren't making a difference by protesting, just taking 5 minutes from the daily news. What I see from society is relying too much on others and not taking issues into their own hands and solving them themselves. Don't depend on the government or some "non-profit" organization (I believe the most cost-effective non-profit only uses 75% of their revenue to benifit their cause). Stop pointing fingers and look at yourself; being introspective is the first step toward producing true results.

[syd]

You guys aren't getting my point.

The vast, vast, VAST majority of people who complain about people dying in Africa and such appear to just sit and complain about it without doing anything BUT complaining. Ok Tofeur, so you DO stuff... and you are what - maybe 0.5% of people who actually DO? The bottom line is that people, especially in North America like to show their sympathy but in reality don't do a damn thing about society in the first place. And that's why there's little to no chance anything will change.

But it is really that hard to comprehend? And marching on main street? It seems to draw attention at several conferences in Vancouver. After all, it accomplishes a lot more than just sitting on FWS.net like we all do.

[jmiller]

Originally posted by syd
You guys aren't getting my point.

The vast, vast, VAST majority of people who complain about people dying in Africa and such appear to just sit and complain about it without doing anything BUT complaining. Ok Tofeur, so you DO stuff... and you are what - maybe 0.5% of people who actually DO? The bottom line is that people, especially in North America like to show their sympathy but in reality don't do a damn thing about society in the first place. And that's why there's little to no chance anything will change.

But it is really that hard to comprehend? And marching on main street? It seems to draw attention at several conferences in Vancouver. After all, it accomplishes a lot more than just sitting on FWS.net like we all do. I know exactly what you're saying. Sitting on here, doing nothing but complain will not solve the problem. People need to get out in their communities and start to help out. Sure I complain on here, but at the same time I do my part in society.
Your messages will only get across if you get off your asses and do something.

[conkermaniac]

Well, I can give beggars money when I do have it, donate money to the few charities that are here, and visit an orphanage, but I can't do much more than that. The fact is, there aren't many charity organizations in this city that help the even more desperately poor out west in this starving. And what about personally going there to see them myself? That would be at least a few weeks' journey (and another few weeks' back), and my parents wouldn't allow me to do that (though I probably would do it myself).

[Todd]

Hate to dig up a thread a couple of days old but I just realized I never replied to you conkermaniac.


Originally posted by conkermaniac
A court ruled that the US was required to pay a total of $250 million dollars, and so far, they've paid a few million of that amount. If after $250 million dollars, they still can't fix the problem, then it's their problem to figure it out on their own.
I don't know the specifics on this, but I am curious about this. Which court handed down that order? Have any more information about it?


Originally posted by conkermaniac
In fact, Hussein was elected with 99% of the votes, I believe. Though there probably was some corruption involved with this election, as with all elections, I doubt it could have factored into such an overwhelming majority. If the US messes with these countries, then they are going against democracy.

Henry Kissinger once said that if the US wasn't pleased with the results of an election, they would interfere.
I don't think it's the results that are the problem but rather the behavior once they have the power. If the USA and Israel wanted to take out Arafat he would already be dead. I think both countries realize the havoc / problems that would come from such behavior. Re Afghanistan: We've had a hands off policy in terms of interfering with other countries but that should change if the government treats it's citizens as bad as the Taliban did. (My 2 cents)


Originally posted by conkermaniac
Clearly, the interests are not for humanitarian aid. The US does not have this much money to waste, and most of its actions are for keeping its status as the world power and for benefitting its own economy.

Find me proof that the net flow between third-world countries and the US flows away from the US, rather than towards. But I have seen no proof of that thus far, while I have seen a lot of proof of the countries giving back more than what the US gives them, including numerous offline resources.

I took out your section on US / China manufacturing as I agree that prices would go up on these items. I won't get in to a debate there but suffice it to say I hate seeing USA based companies take things outside the USA to save money.

http://www.usaid.gov/ - They provide some aid numbers, such as $420 million of aid provided to Afghanistan alone. Without this aid I'm sure death tolls would sky rocket even more. It also says: "The United States provided 80 percent of all food aid to U.N. World Food Program (WFP) for Afghanistan last fiscal year, and already more than 50 percent this year."

80% for one country... No matter where you look, when there is food being donated you'll see those USA letters on the bags. I'll say it again, the USA does far more good then bad.

Look at the financial donations to charities after 9/11 for example. Most Americans are heavily in debt with mortgages, car loans, credit cards, etc. and yet they stepped up to help. It wasn't just from the USA government but also directly from the American people who voluntarily decided to donate instead of pay off their debt.

I really don't think you are giving enough credit for the good actions that have been done. Search for the UN World Food Program and you'll see the largest donations have come from the USA.

Off Topic: I mentioned it in another thread but many bums have mental conditions or abuse drugs and/or alcohol so I'd advise donating to a charity, which helps them instead of paying them directly. Otherwise you may be unintentionally supporting their bad habits and possibly even their drug dealers. Make a web site about the issues that matter to you, tell people how they can help, where they can donate, etc.

Give people the information needed to make the right choice and a majority of them will make the right choice.