Interesting Facts - Great President We Got!

[Robert]

232: Number of American combat deaths in Iraq between May 2003 and January 2004

501: Number of American servicemen to die in Iraq from the beginning of the war - so far

0: Number of American combat deaths in Germany after the Nazi surrender to the Allies in May 1945

0: Number of coffins of dead soldiers returning home from Iraq that the Bush administration has allowed to be photographed

0: Number of funerals or memorials that President Bush has attended for soldiers killed in Iraq

100: Number of fund-raisers attended by Bush or Vice-President ---- Cheney in 2003

13: Number of meetings between Bush and Tony Blair since he became President

10 million: Estimated number of people worldwide who took to the streets in opposition to the invasion of Iraq, setting an all-time record for simultaneous protest

2: Number of nations that Bush has attacked and taken over since coming into the White House

9.2: Average number of American soldiers wounded in Iraq each day since the invasion in March last year

1.6: Average number of American soldiers killed in Iraq per day since hostilities began

16,000: Approximate number of Iraqis killed since the start of war

10,000: Approximate number of Iraqi civilians killed since the beginning of the conflict

$100 billion: Estimated cost of the war in Iraq to American citizens by the end of 2003

$13 billion: Amount other countries have committed towards rebuilding Iraq (much of it in loans) as of 24 October

36%: Increase in the number of desertions from the US army since 1999

92%: Percentage of Iraq's urban areas that had access to drinkable water a year ago

60%: Percentage of Iraq's urban areas that have access to drinkable water today

32%: Percentage of the bombs dropped on Iraq this year that were not precision-guided

1983: The year in which Donald Rumsfeld gave Saddam Hussein a pair of golden spurs

45%: Percentage of Americans who believed in early March 2003 that Saddam Hussein was involved in the 11 September attacks on the US

$127 billion: Amount of US budget surplus in the year that Bush became President in 2001

$374 billion: Amount of US budget deficit in the fiscal year for 2003

1st: This year's deficit is on course to be the biggest in United States history

$1.58 billion: Average amount by which the US national debt increases each day

$23,920: Amount of each US citizen's share of the national debt as of 19 January 2004

1st: The record for the most bankruptcies filed in a single year (1.57 million) was set in 2002

10: Number of solo press conferences that Bush has held since beginning his term. His father had managed 61 at this point in his administration, and Bill Clinton 33

1st: Rank of the US worldwide in terms of greenhouse gas emissions per capita

$113 million: Total sum raised by the Bush-Cheney 2000 campaign, setting a record in American electoral history

$130 million: Amount raised for Bush's re-election campaign so far

$200m: Amount that the Bush-Cheney campaign is expected to raise in 2004

$40m: Amount that Howard Dean, the top fund-raiser among the nine Democratic presidential hopefuls, amassed in 2003

28: Number of days holiday that Bush took last August, the second longest holiday of any president in US history (Recordholder: Richard Nixon)

13: Number of vacation days the average American worker receives each year

3: Number of children convicted of capital offences executed in the US in 2002. America is only country openly to acknowledge executing children

1st: As Governor of Texas, George Bush executed more prisoners (152) than any governor in modern US history

2.4 million: Number of Americans who have lost their jobs during the three years of the Bush administration

221,000: Number of jobs per month created since Bush's tax cuts took effect. He promised the measure would add 306,000

1,000: Number of new jobs created in the entire country in December. Analysts had expected a gain of 130,000

1st: This administration is on its way to becoming the first since 1929 (Herbert Hoover) to preside over an overall loss of jobs during its complete term in office

9 million: Number of US workers unemployed in September 2003

80%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce now unemployed

55%: Percentage of the Iraqi workforce unemployed before the war

43.6 million: Number of Americans without health insurance in 2002

130: Number of countries (out of total of 191 recognised by the United Nations) with an American military presence

40%: Percentage of the world's military spending for which the US is responsible

$10.9 million: Average wealth of the members of Bush's original 16-person cabinet

88%: Percentage of American citizens who will save less than $100 on their 2006 federal taxes as a result of 2003 cut in capital gains and dividends taxes

$42,000: Average savings members of Bush's cabinet are expected to enjoy this year as a result in the cuts in capital gains and dividends taxes

$42,228: Median household income in the US in 2001

$116,000: Amount Vice-President Cheney is expected to save each year in taxes

44%: Percentage of Americans who believe the President's economic growth plan will mostly benefit the wealthy

700: Number of people from around the world the US has incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

1st: George W Bush became the first American president to ignore the Geneva Conventions by refusing to allow inspectors access to US-held prisoners of war

+6%: Percentage change since 2001 in the number of US families in poverty

1951: Last year in which a quarterly rise in US military spending was greater than the one the previous spring

54%: Percentage of US citizens who believe Bush was legitimately elected to his post

1st: First president to execute a federal prisoner in the past 40 years. Executions are typically ordered by separate states and not at federal level

9: Number of members of Bush's defence policy board who also sit on the corporate board of, or advise, at least one defence contractor

35: Number of countries to which US has suspended military assistance after they failed to sign agreements giving Americans immunity from prosecution before the International Criminal Court

$300 million: Amount cut from the federal programme that provides subsidies to poor families so they can heat their homes

$1 billion: Amount of new US military aid promised Israel in April 2003 to offset the "burdens" of the US war on Iraq

58 million: Number of acres of public lands Bush has opened to road building, logging and drilling

200: Number of public-health and environmental laws Bush has attempted to downgrade or weaken

29,000: Number of American troops - which is close to the total of a whole army division - to have either been killed, wounded, injured or become so ill as to require evacuation from Iraq, according to the Pentagon

90%: Percentage of American citizens who said they approved of the way George Bush was handling his job as president when asked on 26 September, 2001

53%: Percentage of American citizens who approved of the way Bush was handling his job as president when asked on 16 January, 2004

Sources: Vanity Fair magazine, Harper's Index, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, US Army (Washington), US Department of Defence, Iraqbodycount.net, Citizens for Tax Justice, Bureau of Economic Analysis (Washington), New York Times/CBS News Poll (NYC), US Department of Commerce, Cap Gemini Ernst & Young (NYC), Coalition Provisional Authority (Baghdad), World Health Organisation (Geneva), Office of Management and Budget (Washington), Centre for Responsive Politics (Washington), Bush-Cheney '04, Inc (Arlington, Va), Election Systems & Software (Omaha), United States Central Command (Tampa)

[Epgs]

Another 2 great sets of things about our president (thank God I can vote this election)

http://www.geocities.com/i_am_arthur_dent/quotes.pdf

http://punkvoter.com/images/dls/FLYER-GWB_Resume.pdf

Just thought I would try and add my opinion, but don't even wanna try and get in a political argument.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Epgs
Another 2 great sets of things about our president (thank God I can vote this election)

http://www.geocities.com/i_am_arthur_dent/quotes.pdf

http://punkvoter.com/images/dls/FLYER-GWB_Resume.pdf

Just thought I would try and add my opinion, but don't even wanna try and get in a political argument.

The first link doesn't work.

[leamhost.com]

according to what I hear some people say on the train the first thing that bush did before he became an president was become an idiot. I believe in my opinion that the war in iraq is an conspiracy I do not know about you all but the war is quite fishy and wheres theh nuclear crap that was supposed to be fount. Well where is it bush ?. The was is just an slide so that bin laden the real master mind to get away with 9/11 and I believe that we should be after him I am not saying that the president is wrong in what hes doing but I am just saying that I would do one thing at a time and don't jump to conclusions to fast.

[MATRIX]

Interesting :biggrin2: I'm happy that I don't live that Everyday, also Good Post :-)

[tandoc]

some of those facts were good, some were crap, i mean, you can't expect much economic growth from a country at war :rolleyes:

[Epgs]

Are you kidding, go to your history teacher and ask:

What brought us out of the Great Depression, What happened to the economy during Vietnam, What happen to the economy during the Gulf War, etc...

It historically brings countries into great economic standing.

[Epgs]

Well this is the jist of my first link

http://www.punkvoter.com/images/dls/FLYER-quotes_moron.pdf

[Conscript]

0: Number of American combat deaths in Germany after the Nazi surrender to the Allies in May 1945

0: Number of coffins of dead soldiers returning home from Iraq that the Bush administration has allowed to be photographed

I stopped reading after those 2.

First of all, there WERE gueriilas and deaths after the surrender in 1945. In fact there was some fratricide also (meaning US soldiers killing US soldiers), and suicides by people who didn't get enough "points" to go home.

And the second point, how many did Clinton allow to be photographed? none. In fact this was a Bill Clinton policy that Bush simply left in place.

Liberal Jackass.

[Canuckkev]

God...that list is too long to pick apart, but I'm sure it can be done. I can instantly see something wrong with about half of those statements. By "wrong" I mean ambiguous, misleading, or sometimes just plain wrong.

It does accomplish it's task nicely though. Feed people statistics, and they will agree with your point.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript

Liberal Jackass.

haha makes ya mad right?

It's from

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=482947

You can write them a letter.

[Conscript]

Just cause it's from a British media source doesnt make it any more accurate.

[Dean]

0: Number of Australian combat deaths in Iraq between May 2003 and January 2004

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript
Just cause it's from a British media source doesnt make it any more accurate.

Of course not. And I don't think the whole point of it was to pass any facts, but rather, to just piss off any Bush supporters... and it does a good job at it.

[Conscript]

It's dishonest. There are people out there, whom I've already seen in fact today in school, who will repeat these things like gospel and really believe them.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript
It's dishonest. There are people out there, whom I've already seen in fact today in school, who will repeat these things like gospel and really believe them.

Some of the facts weren't accurate. Others were true.

How many jobs has Bush created? 1,000 is a good #. And most are McDonalds and Wal-Mart jobs.

How did that company manage to get contracted by the Government to do work in Iraq w/o any bids? Pure luck? I don't think so.

Where are the WMD that Bush claimed Iraq had? Now ain't that dishonest. Making the American people believe we are going to War to remove WMD and yet... none have been found. Of course you can consider the chemical weapons found on the border, believed to have been used during the war against Iran.


What concerns me is how many IT jobs are being outsourced to other countries such as India, Malyasia, and soon to Mexico. Earthlink just laid of 1300 people. If we continue on this path, what future does America have?

I feel like Bush is running America like if it was his own business.. only making decisions that benefit him.

Patriot Act? ha. Let's take more rights away from us.

There is no "perfect" president. But I don't think Bush has handle this country the correct and smart (as well as honest) way.

I think America is doomed.

[Conscript]

First of all, who are you to judge the quality of someone's work? And FYI many jobs have been created. So some IT jobs are being exported, so what? There's other types of jobs being created. You have to stay competitive in the USA to keep your job.

It's all part of something we call PROGRESS.

In the 1950's and 60's there were hundreds of thousands of telephone switch board operators, today there are barley none. Yes, those jobs were destroyed by PROGRESS. But other jobs have opened up since then.

The US's still has a huge IT industry, and the demand for IT workers in the USA is very high. In fact it is so high that IT personel are extremley highly compensated. So highly that companies are turning to foreign nations to provide workers in order to cut costs.

A lot of other low level jobs are being replaced by foreign workers and technology. That ups the standard for finding work in America, which will cause temporary unemployment. That's why it is becoming increasingly important to complete college at not just the bachlor but Masters level. The jobs out there are going to go to the more qualified employees.

It's not Bush's fault that independent American companies are choosing to hire Indian IT staffs.

[Conscript]

You also clearly illustrated the difference between conservatives and liberals.

Conservatives are optimistic. We always see opportunities and hope.

Liberals always think we're going to hell in a handbasket. Liberals are just not happy people. They're depressing, they're angry, they're bitter. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. And through their governmental policies they want everyone to be miserable just like them - equally. That's what they mean by "equality"

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript
First of all, who are you to judge the quality of someone's work?

Who am I? I'm an American. I'm a tax payer. I am allowed to judge my President's quality of work. And I think he has done a horrible job.

I think he's a disgrace to America.. to the true meaning of hard work. I think he's failed in every aspect of his job. I think he's made it worse for America.. For our economy and for our future.

The sooner he's out of office, the better.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript
You also clearly illustrated the difference between conservatives and liberals.

Conservatives are optimistic. We always see opportunities and hope.

Liberals always think we're going to hell in a handbasket. Liberals are just not happy people. They're depressing, they're angry, they're bitter. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. And through their governmental policies they want everyone to be miserable just like them - equally. That's what they mean by "equality"

I love this country. I love this country more than I love my real country (Italy). I was born an American Citizen and I'm proud of it.

But to watch our President spend billions of dollars for another country, while our country has so many holes, is not depressing but it's also upsetting.

Instead of trying to fix other countries, why don't we fix ours first.

Who are we to make up the rules for the world? We need to shut our mouths and mind our own damn business. We preach how perfect our country is, that's complete bull---- and everyone knows it.

We fail in every aspect. Education, technology, politics, military. What do we have to show? That we can invest billions of dollars into war, let our economy suffer, let our citizens be jobless and win a war and try to play it off as if everything is ok?

Why does our Education suck so bad compared to other countries?

Why do you think no countries like us? Not because they are jealous, but because we suck. We have a horrible government.

[Conscript]

we fail in technology and military? that HAS to be a joke. Our military r0x0rz j00r b0x0rz. What other country has ever kicked out a government and defeated another country's military in a matter of weeks? (keeping in mind that US casualties and civilian casualeties were kept to a minimum) The US did it twice in the last few years.

The education part I must agree with, sadly, and the politics part is debatable (i'll argue we have the best system, even if its not perfect, it certainly is better than anyone else has).

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript
we fail in technology and military? that HAS to be a joke. Our military r0x0rz j00r b0x0rz. What other country has ever kicked out a government and defeated another country's military in a matter of weeks? (keeping in mind that US casualties and civilian casualeties were kept to a minimum) The US did it twice in the last few years.


We didn't do anything. The coalition did everything. Thanks to other countries that supported us we were able to bring down Saddam.

Technology.. we are behind. While other countries are advancing in broadband and what they can offer, we are still stuck. Now, we aren't in last place, but when you compare us to other technology advanced countries, we fall pretty far behind.

[Conscript]

We didn't do anything. The coalition did everything.

God I hope that was sarcastic.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Robert
We didn't do anything. The coalition did everything. Thanks to other countries that supported us we were able to bring down Saddam.

Technology.. we are behind. While other countries are advancing in broadband and what they can offer, we are still stuck. Now, we aren't in last place, but when you compare us to other technology advanced countries, we fall pretty far behind.
My Uncle's been to Mexico a number of times. According to him, broadband internet is cheap as hell down there compared to here. Maybe Comcast can take a hint.

[Conscript]

Yeah, prices of everything vary with country. Poland's Satellite TV is about $5 a month for a package that would cost around $40 here in the USA. There is a lengthy economic explanation for that, but I don't feel like typing a lot. But one thing it does NOT mean is that Poland is "ahead" of the USA in any way.

[conkermaniac]

I agree that the list is misleading, but I find it ironic how it's the Republicans on this forum who are pointing that out. Consider how many times their Lord George has mislead the country and how his disciples Saint Rush, Saint Sean, and Saint Ann have consistently twisted facts to support precarious and sometimes indefensible positions. American conservatives have shown a willingness to present the "logic" and "reasoning" of these "analysts" as undisputable evidence, and now that one liberal mouthpiece decides to post a sensational article (which at least contains morsels of truth), the conservatives are outraged. Can anyone say "hypocrisy"?

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Conscript
First of all, who are you to judge the quality of someone's work? And FYI many jobs have been created. So some IT jobs are being exported, so what? There's other types of jobs being created. You have to stay competitive in the USA to keep your job. Not true. Jobs are being created at a far slower pace than they are being lost. The Bush administration has been boasting about its record in creating jobs. They estimated that 150,000 jobs would be created during the holiday season. Well, the administration fell just short of their goal, as a grand total of 1,000 jobs were created. Yes, 1,000. Now, if we keep this up for 1 year, we might have 12,000 jobs by the end of the year. Oh, that's right, several million people are unemployed. Well, that just means that Bush will have to take our mind off of that for a while until November by attacking another defenseless country.

I personally know several people who are unemployed. And no, they certainly aren't incompetent dimwits. They are in fact, capable programmers, perhaps better than the employees who are getting their jobs, but were laid off simply because they were too expensive. What were they supposed to do--take a paycut until they were making little more than the newspaper delivery boy? It's not their fault that it takes an income of $50,000 to make a decent living in the US, and perhaps that much in rupiahs to live in India.

By the way, this is the same economic principles that you were talking about with the Polish satellite dish--cost of living is directly proportional to income.



It's all part of something we call PROGRESS.

In the 1950's and 60's there were hundreds of thousands of telephone switch board operators, today there are barley none. Yes, those jobs were destroyed by PROGRESS. But other jobs have opened up since then. Yes, you could call it progress if our computers were being replaced by laser-sensitive, sound-responsive units with teleporting capabilities. But they're not. Tech jobs are being lost because of salary expenses, not because our technology has already advanced beyond that level. And perhaps they would not be so quick to move if we were not in a recession.



It's not Bush's fault that independent American companies are choosing to hire Indian IT staffs. No, it's not his fault, but he could do something else about it. What about putting a high tariff on software from India, thus narrowing the profit to expense ratio and discouraging the IT companies from moving? What about handing out US work visas to foreign nationals for sectors where we actually need the labor, rather than letting them displace our workers in areas where the labor market is already saturated?

[Webdude]

A company is required to maintain a certain % of minorities within their company. Why not require American Corporations to maintain an employee status of 95% American? Another thing Bush is failing at is gas prices. They are about to go up again... Personally I think it needs government control since this isnt something the consumer can control. I think it should be like electric companies and the post office who have to beg and scream to get their rates raised.

The gas companies are the only ones I know of who get away with what they do. "Threat of War" and gas across the country shoots up 5-10 cents.....all because the gas companies get a little nervous heart twitter and a trigger finger because of remote news they have heard....a bit rediculous I think. What would happen if telcos tried the same thing? Our government would come down on them like flies on a brownie. Why not do the same to the gas companies??

[Epgs]

My whole take on this:
1. Liberals are unhappy people- are you kidding me. Why the hell do you stereotype 50% of the nation as unhappy (I am using 50% because of the last election results). I am personally very happy. Everyone in my family is. This is the stupidest statement I have every seen, but lets always remember ignorance is bliss.


2. Bush spends 804 Billion dollars on current military personell broken down as Military Personnel $99B, Operation and Maintenance $133B, Procurement $68B, Research and Development $58B, Construction $6B, Family Housing $4B, Retired Pay $39B, DoE Nuclear Weapons $16B, 50% NASA $8B, International Security $7B, 60% Homeland Security $16B, misc. $5B. (This doesn't include war on iraq), plus this amount includes military benefits, and 80% interest on the national debt (created by past military). Whereas he only spends $593B on Education, Health/Human Services, HUD, Food/Nutrition programs, Labor Department, Soc. Sec. Admin.

I know many ways this money could be spend without killing thousands of people. It is known as education, helping the people who don't have everything we have, or what about paying off a national debt.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript
Yeah, prices of everything vary with country. Poland's Satellite TV is about $5 a month for a package that would cost around $40 here in the USA. There is a lengthy economic explanation for that, but I don't feel like typing a lot. But one thing it does NOT mean is that Poland is "ahead" of the USA in any way.

It's because olGeorgie boy doesn't feel that Technology is a priority. All of Europe is advanced in Technology compared to the U.S. With Broadband and 3G and other types of technology.

Face the reality. America IS NOT THE #1 anymore.

We are NOT the #1 country for JOBS.. INDIA is ..thanks to us.

We are NOT the #1 country in Technology, Japan (obviously) and other Countries are....

[Robert]

Originally posted by Conscript
God I hope that was sarcastic.

What did "WE" do? Spend billions of dollars, let our men die and what do we have to show? We didn't even caught Saddam ourselves, yet we made the rest of the world believe we did.


I wouldn't be surprised if every country wanted us to attack them. Let's look at the facts at when we attack a country:

- We feed their people
- We provide medical aide
- We remove the bad people from power
- We spend billions of dollars repairing their country
- We give them everything they neeed to start over
- We give them jobs and education

Hell that's exactly what we should be doing to AMERICA.

America is so far from perfect and I recently started seeing it after this Administration took place.

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Robert

I wouldn't be surprised if every country wanted us to attack them. Let's look at the facts at when we attack a country:

- We feed their people
- We provide medical aide
- We remove the bad people from power
- We spend billions of dollars repairing their country
- We give them everything they neeed to start over
- We give them jobs and education
Well, technically, that's not true. Out of the six things on that list, we've only accomplished one and a half. We haven't provided adequate provisions to the people. We've bombed their hospitals. We destroyed the infrastructure of the economy, eliminating many jobs and rendering their currency worthless. While Saddam provided everyone with education/indoctrination, we're not providing them with either. The statement that we've spent billions of dollars "repairing" their country is half true--we have spent billions of dollars, but we haven't exactly fixed anything. In fact, the only thing Bush can safely boast about having accomplished is removing the bad guy from power--which is exactly what he's doing. So to say that people actually want us to attack their country is a bit farfetched, but I agree with the spirit of your message. These things are exactly what we should be trying to do in our country.

[Robert]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Well, technically, that's not true. Out of the six things on that list, we've only accomplished one and a half. We haven't provided adequate provisions to the people. We've bombed their hospitals. We destroyed the infrastructure of the economy, eliminating many jobs and rendering their currency worthless. While Saddam provided everyone with education/indoctrination, we're not providing them with either. The statement that we've spent billions of dollars "repairing" their country is half true--we have spent billions of dollars, but we haven't exactly fixed anything. In fact, the only thing Bush can safely boast about having accomplished is removing the bad guy from power--which is exactly what he's doing. So to say that people actually want us to attack their country is a bit farfetched, but I agree with the spirit of your message. These things are exactly what we should be trying to do in our country.

Just give it time. Once Iraq is back up and running, we'll be exporting our tech centers and jobs to them! I wouldn't be surprised...

[Webdude]

I say let's bomb the tech centers in India :applaudin

[Robert]

Originally posted by Webdude
I say let's bomb the tech centers in India :applaudin

haha. Very good advice.

[Kaliber]

Face the reality. America IS NOT THE #1 anymore.

We are NOT the #1 country for JOBS.. INDIA is ..thanks to us.

We are NOT the #1 country in Technology, Japan (obviously) and other Countries are....
The USA is the #1 generally, whilst you may not be the country with the greatest total jobs I am sure your employment rate is much better than indias. Technology, it really depends on what field your talking about. Whilst japan are probably the leading microelectronics and gadget country you are (without a doubt) leading the space race, you are the leading country in weapons/warefare. I could go on forever. The fact is, the USA is the world leader. Everything you do, the world takes notice. This puts you under more pressure to perform.

Lets get the facts right. The USA is the world leader. Your president is no smarter than my grandma.

Next time your at the polls, remember how crap he is and vote the ----er out.

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Webdude
I say let's bomb the tech centers in India :applaudin Sorry, but I view that comment as horribly immature, and if it was intended as a joke, it certainly wasn't very funny. And no, I'm not Indian. :confused5

[tandoc]

Originally posted by Kaliber
president is no smarter than my grandma.

Your grandma is stupid :bandit2:

[on-topic]
for some reason, i see america as mircosoft, people hate it, yet, we wouldn't be here because of it.

i'd just laugh if someone like dennis kucinich ends up being the democratic candidate (though it's not possible...)

maybe he'll bring a video presentation to his next radio interview
(for those who didn't know, he brought a pie chart to one of his radio interviews :confused2 )

[JodoHost]

Indians are not unhappy with what they are being paid. You can't enforce your own yard scales on Indian salaries.

Indian sourcing firms are offering their services to the world the same way US companies such as coke and pepsi are making millions selling their products in India. It's what you call globalisation.

[Robert]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Sorry, but I view that comment as horribly immature, and if it was intended as a joke, it certainly wasn't very funny. And no, I'm not Indian. :confused5

Apparently it's the American way of getting what we want.

[JodoHost]

Originally posted by Webdude
I say let's bomb the tech centers in India :applaudin

A very microscopic view of the world you have, don't you?

[JodoHost]

Originally posted by conkermaniac

What about putting a high tariff on software from India, thus narrowing the profit to expense ratio and discouraging the IT companies from moving?

You do that and you'll end up seeing huge tariffs slapped on US goods across Europe and Asia. The impact of that on US jobs will drawf that of oursourcing.

[Webdude]

Originally posted by JodoHost
A very microscopic view of the world you have, don't you?

No, well yeah. Actually, I'm not in support for any company, so it's not the job issue. Fact is, it seems every company I'm a customer is outsourcing their support to India. I make a call, and cant even understand the person. THAT I do have a problem with. If you are going to offer customer support services to Americans, make sure you hire people who speak the language well enough to actually support them...!

[Robert]

Originally posted by Webdude
No, well yeah. Actually, I'm not in support for any company, so it's not the job issue. Fact is, it seems every company I'm a customer is outsourcing their support to India. I make a call, and cant even understand the person. THAT I do have a problem with. If you are going to offer customer support services to Americans, make sure you hire people who speak the language well enough to actually support them...!

They speak English - just not our version of English. And it really does irritate me when I make a phone call to a manufacture who outsources tech support to India. I spend about 2-5 minutes explaining by issue and when I'm done, the person on the other line ignores everything I said as if they didn't understand me.. which is probably true.

I also have a very hard time understanding what they are saying. They mumble and most have a heavy accent and it just frustrating.

[JodoHost]

Originally posted by Webdude
No, well yeah. Actually, I'm not in support for any company, so it's not the job issue. Fact is, it seems every company I'm a customer is outsourcing their support to India. I make a call, and cant even understand the person. THAT I do have a problem with. If you are going to offer customer support services to Americans, make sure you hire people who speak the language well enough to actually support them...!

it depends where your manufacturers outsource to. If you go for established providers, you won't have those problems.

We personally have nothing to do with outsourcing. But what concerns me is the anti-india attitude that is developing.

[Kaliber]

Originally posted by JodoHost
You do that and you'll end up seeing huge tariffs slapped on US goods across Europe and Asia. The impact of that on US jobs will drawf that of oursourcing. Exactly, this is what happened during the great depression.

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by JodoHost
You do that and you'll end up seeing huge tariffs slapped on US goods across Europe and Asia. The impact of that on US jobs will drawf that of oursourcing. No, what I meant is that high tariffs should be put on American software coming from India. Unfortunately, there's no way to control the outsourcing of tech support jobs to India as there is no final tangible product.

I absolutely agree with Webdude that the use of Indian tech support is outrageous. It's not that I think they speak an inferior brand of English but rather that they speak a different one. While that's totally appropriate if the product was being sold throughout India, it's not excusable when the target audience is almost exclusively Americans. I would say the same if British people were running tech support for American companies, so it's not that I'm being racist against Indians.

[Webdude]

Originally posted by JodoHost
it depends where your manufacturers outsource to. If you go for established providers, you won't have those problems.

We personally have nothing to do with outsourcing. But what concerns me is the anti-india attitude that is developing.

Dont get me wrong, I have absolutely nothing against Indians or India itself. If a company I am a customer of doesnt care anymore about it's business than to give me that kind of support, they dont need me as a customer. If they cant provide me with good service reps who can speak American English clearly and understand my American English clearly....again, they do not need my business. Some of their competition dont outsource. American CSR's may be idiots, but hey, at least I can understand them..

But Anti-India? Nah, they are just doing what any smart country with that kind of opportunity would do.

[Jan]

Originally posted by JodoHost
it depends where your manufacturers outsource to. If you go for established providers, you won't have those problems.

We personally have nothing to do with outsourcing. But what concerns me is the anti-india attitude that is developing.
I haven't been following this thread, but thought I would take a look (as long threads usually are off topic or flaming :p)

:topic:

Speaking of outsourcimg, I am extremely peed off that IBM are outsourcing IT jobs to India!!!! Cheap labour but people in Australia want/need these darned jobs!!! The unemployment level is getting very high and yet they employ people from other countries to do the same specialised jobs for a pittance! :angry2:

[Kaliber]

Originally posted by Jan
I haven't been following this thread, but thought I would take a look (as long threads usually are off topic or flaming :p)

:topic:

Speaking of outsourcimg, I am extremely peed off that IBM are outsourcing IT jobs to India!!!! Cheap labour but people in Australia want/need these darned jobs!!! The unemployment level is getting very high and yet they employ people from other countries to do the same specialised jobs for a pittance! :angry2: Its all about the profit margin. I think its good sharing these sort of jobs around. Authough its not fantastic for our economy it would be great for india. Boy we are all selfish, THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

[JodoHost]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
No, what I meant is that high tariffs should be put on American software coming from India. Unfortunately, there's no way to control the outsourcing of tech support jobs to India as there is no final tangible product.


Before I go on I'd like to clarify that I was born in NYC, grew up there and hold US citizenship. Right now I play a major role for JodoHost which is based out of New Delhi (India).

I don't see how you could ever pass a law specificly banning software services from India. What I do see is that the US government could slap tarrifs on all foreign software services. And the result of that would be terrible.

[JodoHost]

Originally posted by Jan

Speaking of outsourcimg, I am extremely peed off that IBM are outsourcing IT jobs to India!!!! Cheap labour but people in Australia want/need these darned jobs!!! The unemployment level is getting very high and yet they employ people from other countries to do the same specialised jobs for a pittance! :angry2:

IBM is not an australian company. They are a US company and a multinational. They have a very large market in India as well and I don't see anything wrong with them hiring a certain % of their workforce in India like they do so in Australia. The workforce hired in India is way lesser than the workforce they have hired in Australia or the US.

And once again, Indians are happy with what they are making. The cost of living is substantially lesser. You can't use your yard sticks while measuring Indian salaries. They don't work in pittance so excuse me.

I see nothing wrong with the backlash against Indian call centers because I understand there are accent problems. But the call center business is a small fraction of what is outsourced to India. I absolutely do not except the argument that paying lower prices in India means lower quality. I'm referring to software and medical services that are also outsourced to India

[Webdude]

Jodohost and Jan....

I can understand an Australian better than I can an Indian. The Indian accent is extremely heavy, and they talk very softly. So not only are you trying to understand their words, you are also straining to actually "hear" them. For these reasons, which are causing customer dis-satisfaction, IBM and Dell are considering moving more CSR jobs back to the US, or possibly other "lower wage but better English" countries. India alone has many dialects of their own language, which makes it hard for them to even understand each other....and when they cant, they use English, the common language there. What they probably see, but dont yet know how to deal with, is the fact that they are actually using a different dialect of English than the customer base they are dealing with.

Great software and medical personnel come out of India, however, it would probably be best to leave customer support positions to a better english speaking country.

Jan, the reason why India got the call centers and not Australia is probably due to the Governments. They control the taxes and can control the costs. The Indian government probably GAVE land on top of huge tax breaks, and probably directly funded much of the infrastructure in India to make it happen. Unfortunate for American clients, but the Indian government was willing to work a lot more than any other to make it happen. Personally, I would have prefered the call centers be in Australia. Australians seem to have a much better phone personality than do the Indians also..

[JodoHost]

Originally posted by Webdude

Jan, the reason why India got the call centers and not Australia is probably due to the Governments. They control the taxes and can control the costs. The Indian government probably GAVE land on top of huge tax breaks, and probably directly funded much of the infrastructure in India to make it happen. Unfortunate for American clients, but the Indian government was willing to work a lot more than any other to make it happen. Personally, I would have prefered the call centers be in Australia. Australians seem to have a much better phone personality than do the Indians also..

That is not true. The Indian government has nothing to do with outsourcing. They never funded any infrastucture to develop outsourcing nor did the government have any vision for outsourcing. It's only lately taken a keen interest in it because its said to contribute nearly $1 trillion a year to India's export by 2010.

Much of the infrastructure is already there. When you picture India, you probably picture rural India. You really need to visit Banglore, Delhi, Bombay and calcutta. You got an underground subway system in two of these cities. Hard to imagine?

[Webdude]

Originally posted by JodoHost
It's only lately taken a keen interest in it because its said to contribute nearly $1 trillion a year to India's export by 2010.

And it is only here recently that the explosion in the US to move support to India has happened. $1 trillion is enouph to get their attention and take action to try and make sure the industry stays there. I did say "maybe" also :) However, those tax cuts will be coming if it's required to keep the industry there. More than likely, any government funding will be directly at the problem itself, improving the Indian citizen how to speak American English well enough to alleviate the complaints.

I'd settle for just a pic of those cities rather than travel....I have never seen them.

[JodoHost]

Originally posted by Webdude
And it is only here recently that the explosion in the US to move support to India has happened. $1 trillion is enouph to get their attention and take action to try and make sure the industry stays there. I did say "maybe" also :) However, those tax cuts will be coming if it's required to keep the industry there. More than likely, any government funding will be directly at the problem itself, improving the Indian citizen how to speak American English well enough to alleviate the complaints.

I'd settle for just a pic of those cities rather than travel....I have never seen them.

If the Indian government funded any program to change accents they would be voted out of office :) Most of the money still goes to rural development projects, etc. The cities are a result of the liberalization process that started in India in the early 90s.

I see nothing wrong with your companies shifting customer support jobs back to the US. If Indian call centers lack quality, then companies are free to go wherever there is quality. Call centers are a small part of what is outsourced to India like I said. Most companies these days outsource software and R&D to India. Medical outsourcing is also gaining popularity

What I am against however is blaming Indians for your job problems. Indians work at what they are happy with and they are happy to provide services at their prices. A complete ban on outsourcing is ridiculous because that would ultimately lead to an even bigger job crisis in the US like I said before.

I really can't imagine all the jobs migrating to India. The scenario is being excessively hyped and I find that ridiculous as well. There is going to be some balance struck eventually and I'm sure in the end only a very small fraction of US jobs are going to be outsourced overseas. Outsourcing has always existed and its essential for small businesses who can't afford hiring their own staff immediately. It's essential for big businesses to remain competitive in the world (better profits means more jobs by the way).

[tandoc]

here.. have a good read:

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.02/india.html

[Kaliber]

I am sure you will all be happy to hear that this shirt (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/31/35149.html) is back on the production line :)

[bigperm]

Anybody who doesn't see that GW is a puppet of a vast right wing conspiracy to keep the rich richer and the poor poorer, is an idiot.

[Robert]

Originally posted by bigperm
Anybody who doesn't see that GW is a puppet of a vast right wing conspiracy to keep the rich richer and the poor poorer, is an idiot.

Hey BigPerm! LTNS.

[Dean]

1 (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8764107%255E401,00.html): Number of Australian servicemen to die in Iraq from the beginning of the war

[stabme]

It's not Bush's fault that independent American companies are choosing to hire Indian IT staffs.actually... yes, it is. he supports the FTAA and the NAFTA and the such..

im not too happy about this foreign business, either. its america. i dont think foreigners should be able to get a job eaiser than americans can... thats bull crap.

[Blank Verse]

Originally posted by stabme
im not too happy about this foreign business, either. its america. i dont think foreigners should be able to get a job eaiser than americans can... thats bull crap.

That may be the most ignorant statement ever.

[Webdude]

Originally posted by Blank Verse
That may be the most ignorant statement ever.

I think he meant that foreigners shouldnt be able to get American jobs easier than Americans can. You know, if it were the Indians losing jobs to Americans, I would feel the same way. Jobs that have become industry standard, that have become such a mainstay of so many people's lives.....simply should not be sent to other countries. Now, let's take Dell for example. If they were to cease hiring in the States but not fire anyone, and opened new centers in India and did all future hiring there, that would be a different story.

The issue has never been on the right track. This isnt about whether we should provide jobs for Indians or not. It's about "firing" Americans in favor of "hiring" Indians simply because they can work cheaper because a dollar goes a lot further for an Indian in India than it does for an American in America.

It still pisses me off that these Indian techs sit there and say that American companies are switching to Indian workers because they do the job better, which I would dispute. If it were based off who provides a better quality service, I would say American workers because I can understand them....but it's not about quality as Indians like to make themselves believe.....it's because they work for less. It's the old "you get what you pay for".

[allanh]

The only reason why Indians are getting the jobs over Americans is because they work for less money, as webdude pointed out. People (consumers) don't care about the quality.

The same can be said about the Chinese goods. If only people would choose quality over pricing, then perhaps we won't see "Made in China" flooding our stores.

[Conscript]

It's an issue of comparitive advantage. Everyone does what they do best and everyone is better off for it.

To become an isolationist country with economic barriers would cost our economy much more than it would help. Some jobs need to be discountinued for being obsolete and some jobs need to be exported to save costs. That in turn creates better conditions for the company which then can use the extra profit on R&D and expansion, thus creating NEW jobs of a different nature back here at home.

NAFTA and world trade ARE GOOD things.

If liberals didn't want these jobs to go overseas in the first place they shouldn't have taxed everyone to death. Now that they have, all we have left to fall back on is pure economics.

And those who lose their jobs, too bad, learn a new skill and move on. In a fast paced world you have to keep reinventing yourself and doing new things in order to stay competitve. No one is going to hire you as a programmer and let you work 50 years for the same company and then retire. This isn't the 1800's where one could spend all life in a single mill or office.

If your job is no longer there, rather than b**ch and moan about it, find a new skill and a new job. Change is good.