Todd you're doing a fine job

[lucifer]

Todd,

just wishing you well in your campaign to try to bring a bit of order to the boards. Things seem to have got a little out of hand recently and I will admit that I may have been involved in this a slight amount.

There is a fine line between good humour and abuse

I do not envy you in your task

all the best

lucifer

[LeX]

Originally posted by lucifer
I do not envy you in your task
:confused: Why should you?! :confused:

[Giancarlo]

Lucifer you can't show that avatar no more, period. I am going to put the issue to rest now, so it can die off.. and we can get back to our regular selfs.

You were not involved in slight amounts... you were involved in restarting the whole thing over again.

(BTW, I don't spend too much timetyping up messages, so excuse the grammatical errors)

[Todd]

Thank you for recognizing that lucifer I appreciate it. I don't mind if you guys go off topic a bit as long as the threads go back to their main topic. Lately that hasn't been happening.

When it comes to personal attacks I won't accept anything at this point. I've already learned my lesson about letting threads get away from me. :) Just keep the offensive material off the forum please.

If you want to debate about politics or forms of governments go right ahead but do so in the general forum. Just don't attack one another but rather attack their point of view if you disagree with it.

[keith]

Originally posted by Todd
Just keep the offensive material off the forum please.

actually, i find one forum member's icon and signature out of line and quite offensive... a least i'm offended [with hitler and jesus, you know who i'm talking about]

[bigperm]

Well, it's just some pictures of some people, and then the logo for my favorite band. You don't have to like it... but that is what it is.

What about it offends you? The crossed-out cross? Or Hitler and Jesus in the same gif?

[Todd]

I'll wait to see what other moderators say about it and to see what Peo says about it. I can see why it would be offensive to some but at the same time it's not breaking the rules.

If others feel the same way please send me a private message and I'll remove it temporarily until a decision can be made.

Thanks.

[bigperm]

but at the same time it's not breaking the rules

Here is a quote from my favorite band: "Consensus is not a fact based exercise"

So even if everybody pm's you, and says that they don't like it, doesn't mean that it is breaking any rules.

[Todd]

Agreed bigperm, however you are overlooking the word: temporarily

The change would only be temporary until it was discussed. Then Peo would decide on what he would like to do if anything.

It is his site and he has the right to make these choices. Until he can make a permanent choice I would take temporary action to hold the situation over until his choice has been made.

I highly doubt that not having that avatar for a few days would make or break your life. :)

[lucifer]

The problem with this sort of thing is where does it end?


Yes, bigperm's aviator could be seen as offensive by some but I don't think that most people would view it that way. Some people will always get offended, that is one of those things in life. I don't see it as being very inflamatory.

I'm more concerned by the xenophobic/homophobic attitudes of some postings.


Bigperm's aviator is a joke - why don't people take it that way? :rolleyes:

[Todd]

Simple, it ends where Peo says it ends. :)

I really haven't been censoring anything other then the direct personal attacks, which violate the rules. I wouldn't be removing the avatar for good if people did message me and complain I would only remove it until Peo could make a choice on this issue.

I'll give it some time to see if anyone complains and if not I'll just leave it as is and let Peo decide on this. I'm sure he would have included something in the rules before but it wasn't applicable to the old vBulletin software.

Also, by using your same argument:

The problem with this sort of thing is where does it end?

Would you allow pornography on an avatar? Would you allow an incredibly violent image on it?

My only point is that the line has to be drawn somewhere.

[Giancarlo]

I want Bigperm to remove his avatar as it is offensive, he has no right to make fun of my idol like that, Ronald Reagan, and is just doing it to harass me. Jimmy Carter should be on it instead, he was the bible nut.

And Hitler, by the way, despised religion, he tried getting rid of it during the first years but manipulated it in the end by creating the National Church of Germany.

[stu]

I agree. I don't feel that avatar is acceptable, having both hitler and jesus in together is quite disrespectful..

[Todd]

For now it's been removed but this is only until Peo can make a choice on it.

I hesitated to even do this only because it is in a sense freedom of speech. At the same time the line has to be drawn somewhere and seeing as though this is Peo's site he has the complete right to make this choice.

Feel free to debate about this among yourselves and I'll stay out of it as long as it doesn't result in personal attacks. Try and be constructive by debating each viewpoint. Then we'll have a better idea as to how most of you feel on this issue.

[Canuckkev]

Just like to say I am not offended. It would take a lot to offend me. I believe people can say or do whatever they want, as long as no one else is directly affected. If your are offended by something that you can not change, maybe ignoring it would help. If you can't ignore it, stay away.

[meow]

[Coolin]

Oh great, now he's got it in his sig.

Putting down one's religion is like putting down the person himself. And personal attacks are not allowed on this forum.

[Giancarlo]

I am atheist by the way... I was just angry that Reagan and Jesus were in the same thing.

[Coolin]

Guess what? I'm not.

[Technics]

Just remove the signature and be done with it. If you do not like someone ignore that person or die mad.

[Coolin]

Let's say I have a signature that says: (insert name here) is a big, fat, ugly, %&#@er.

Should that person ignore it?

[Giancarlo]

Coolin does it look like I really care? I don't... I was just mad that someone put Reagan, the best President ever in the United States along with Jesus. I don't care if you are religious or not, just don't come crawling into my way of thinking. From now on we can keep cool and respect people's beliefs, whether there are political (!) or religious or whatever else the person thinks strongly of.... deal?

[Technics]

You report it to the mods and leave it at that not start a fullscale war with them on a public forum.

[Giancarlo]

What the hell are you accusing me of?

[Technics]

nothing why?

[Giancarlo]

I have had little to do with these wars, I just posted in a civilized manner and left for several hours and come back and everyone is banned and all the threads are deleted. So don't accuse me of instigating a war.

[Technics]

didnt realise you were the person with the stuff about jesus and hitler in your signature. Calm down.

[Giancarlo]

No that is Bigperm that had all that in his signature, if you are accusing me of starting wars with Bigperm over that than you are treading over the wrong waters.

[keith]

bigperm's signature obviously states a little more than just a joke, as did the avatar. he didn't make that his personal icon till after someone had commented on liking giancarlo's icon [reagan], and bigperm disagreed... and so on... so yes, it was meant to offend and harrass.

[Technics]

Get a grip im not accusing you of anything if you read my posts how they started i was on about bigperm i dont even have a clue why you got so wound up by it. Go take a walk in the park and calm down and think about things before jumping on people.

[Giancarlo]

What Bigperm did to me was offensive, and what he did to make fun of my idol, Ronald Reagan like that was an insult to me. He should have a permanent ban.

[Technics]

Well contact a mod, Ask them to remove it. And then go about your daily life and forget it. People slate my idol but its best to turn the other cheek.

[meow]

LOL! Looks like you are involved now, Technics! :p;);)
It's contagious. All is well as long as one stays out if it and just ignores him. Answer once and you've had it. :D

[niv]

yeah, Giancarlo's just a bit hotheaded.

[Technics]

It's late night sunday, im bored theres nothing on tele till after midnight it keeps my occupied.

[niv]

yes, THAT's always why we get involved ;)

[Technics]

* shucks *i should eat my own words .....

[bigperm]

Well, what Todd said what was right, about the avatar not being on there making or breaking my life... it's not that big of a deal. I made that avatar with PSP 3 (yeah... it sucks) and Gif Constuction Set.

It started with Reagan and Hitler, and nobody cared about that... Then I added Jesus and the logo for my favorite band, and cleaned it up a bit.

I didn't want people to misinterpret it to mean something, (Which it doesn't), so I clarified that in my sig, stating that it was just Reagan, Hitler, Jesus and Bad Religion. Apperently, some people thought of that as a double whammy, thinking that I was implying something.

Having those pictures on that avatar is not trying to repesent some kind of order, importance or any kind of connection... They are just three well known people, and the logo for my favorite band.

Having Hitler in the same gif as Jesus offends you? Why? Because Hitler killed 11 million people? Yeah, that sucked, a big smear on our history. Forget about the crusades? How many people dies in that, in the name of Jesus? You know there are people out there that say that the holocaust never happened and it is all a part of the left-wing media's one world order plan or something. Well, it did happen, and so did the crusades, and the complete corruption of catholisism that ruined many people's live, in the name of Jesus. Or did that never happen? Part of the left-wing media's one world order plan?

I never meant it to mean anything... but if you are going to be offended, at least think about it for a second. But, since I (and you guys) have put so much thought into it, here is what the avatar means:

Reagan ruined the economy for America... Seriously divided the gap between the rich and the poor. (Giancarlo, I don't want to hear it.) He is a bad person.

Hitler killed 6 million jews in the worst war ever fought anywhere on the planet, and nearly won. He is a Bad Person.

Jesus, the most famous religious leader in the free world... Some people see him as the son of God, some see him only as a narcoleptic carpenter. This is where YOU come in... You can see his picture as the light at the end of the Reagen/Hitler tunnel or see him as another person on the list of people to despise... your choice.

The cross-buster... Logo for Bad Religion, the greatest band EVER. Their songs helped me deal with a lot in my life, and they really have a great message, and they use big words. This is the light at the end of the Reagen/Hitler/Jesus tunnel for me... for everybody else... it is probably a sacreligious icon that mock's Christ and Christianity. But it's not your avatar, and it's not making you think some way, and it's not forcing anything down your throat.

This is a freedom of speech issue... hopefully people will grow up, and not get so mad about a 3k 50x50 image on a message board... I mean COME ON!

[niv]

true that. ;)

[keith]

Originally posted by Technics
It's late... blah blah blah...

the classic "oops" excuse.

[Hoth]

If this were about Christians being offended maybe I could see it, in a way. Instead, this is about someone daring to make fun of Giancarlo's idol? :confused: He should be banned for "what he did to make fun of my idol, Ronald Reagan"? If making fun of a President were a crime, all republicans would be in jail for making fun of Clinton.

For the record, I admit Reagan was the best actor to ever buy the office of puppet... er, President. :p

[Giancarlo]

Reagan saved the economy from hyperinflation and unproductivtity. He saved the economy from liberals like you. Reagan did not do what you say, you are wrong and have your facts misinterpreted. (Bigperm, I don't want to hear it)

[keith]

no, i as a chritian was offended. that icon wasn't an accident.

[niv]

what about Martin Scheen? oh right that's not real. my mistake :D

[keith]

i'd qit arguing giancarlo, it won't get you anywhere. these people who disagree with you on reagan are the same people who believe bush is putting arsenic in the water. they're just severely ignorant and uneducated.

[niv]

if (republican.control("Level2")){
for ($i = 0; $i < $republican_way_of_thinking; $i++){
$prosperity--;
}
recession ();
}

[Hoth]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Reagan saved the economy from hyperinflation and unproductivtity. He saved the economy from liberals like you.

Funny how much better the economy was under Clinton than under Reagan or Bush, isn't it? ;) The President doesn't have that much real power over it anyway.

[bigperm]

One more thing...

What the hell ever happened to communication? I mean, there is a little button on EVERY post of mine to pm (private message) me. Why not just write a little note and tell me that you are offended by my avatar?

No, people have to be a ---- about it, and post it as an aside in a thread about something totally different, and not even mention my name. Come on!!! I am right HERE... talk to me.

Had i got a pm from somebody, saying that they were offended by it, probably would have taken it off, no big deal probelm solved. Well, now it is a big deal...

Or maybe he just wrote it in this thread because Todd was more likely to see it, and more likely to do something about it, since the thread topic bears his name. How cheap.

[Giancarlo]

Thank You, Keith. I now know someone here has the intelligence to look how the country really works. I am depressed at seeing so many uneducated people. I am a Atheist, but at the same time a Republican Hardliner.

[Giancarlo]

Funny how much better the economy was under Clinton than under Reagan or Bush, isn't it?

Funny how the programs that Clinton initated are now damaging the economy right now? Under Bush right now, the economy is going to shoot upwards after this Tax Cut.

[niv]

no, it's not that some of us are not uneducated but that some of us are democrats.

i for one, am an independent and i frequently cross party lines, thank you very much ;)

[Giancarlo]

Proof that Reagan saved the economy:
http://www.reaganlegacy.org/record/Cato/SUPPLY-SIDE%20TAX%20CUTS%20AND%20THE%20TRUTH%20ABOUT%20THE%20REAGAN %20ECONOMIC%20RECORD.htm

[niv]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Funny how much better the economy was under Clinton than under Reagan or Bush, isn't it?

Funny how the programs that Clinton initated are now damaging the economy right now? Under Bush right now, the economy is going to shoot upwards after this Tax Cut.

Funny you should say that. Any knowledgable and respectable person would tell you that a tax cut of this proportion doesn't always work. It's just that Republican views fuel this kind of thought.

[bigperm]

I always thought independants are independant of party lines.

[niv]

the party lines do exist, and are beyond my or any other independant's control.

[niv]

i'm sorry to say this, but is there any point to this thread being around anymore? we've severely gone off track. ;)

[bigperm]

To know why Reagan is a bad man... listen to Jello Biafra's spoken word "What Reagan Didn't Know" of of his first album, 'No More Coccons"

You might actaully have to buy that one.

[meow]

Originally posted by keith
i'd qit arguing giancarlo, it won't get you anywhere. these people who disagree with you on reagan are the same people who believe bush is putting arsenic in the water. they're just severely ignorant and uneducated.
I will study this post and really try to learn from it. Maybe it could be used as a model for how one should express oneself not to offend the high standards of fws? What about it Tod? Make it an template?

[atlas]

Originally posted by Hoth


Funny how much better the economy was under Clinton than under Reagan or Bush, isn't it? ;) The President doesn't have that much real power over it anyway.

Changes in the economy take a while to take hold, and nobody can accurately determine the effect of a specific event or policy -- you can usually determine it's general effect, but not it's magnitude or when its benefits/consequences will show up.

Reagan with his huge spending may well have helped out our economy during the Clinton years -- but then again, who knows?

Don't even try to play the card that says Clinton was the driving force behind the hot economy, that's poor economic analysis. Remember that the economy already started sagging under Clinton -- but that doesn't mean he created that either. So don't try that argument unless you want him to take credit for the downturn too.

-mk

[niv]

yeah, it's all allan greenspan :D:p :p :p

[Giancarlo]

This is solid evidence showing Reagan was responsible for the economic boom...

http://www.reaganlegacy.org/record/Cato/SUPPLY-SIDE%20TAX%20CUTS%20AND%20THE%20TRUTH%20ABOUT%20THE%20REAGAN %20ECONOMIC%20RECORD.htm

[Gayowulf]

Here's my take on this thread: Yes, Todd and the mod squad are doing a good job, and there has been a lot of drifting off topic. let them do their job.

Dont whine about someone else's avatar. If it offends you just ignore it. I agree, the line does have to be drawn, but i believe that line lies beyond names and attacking political parties.

it would also probably be better to complain and whine about someone's avatar/sig via email then to clutter up a forum.

[Giancarlo]

Goal for this week: Stay on Topic.
Repeat after me... Stay on Topic.

[atlas]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
This is solid evidence showing Reagan was responsible for the economic boom...

http://www.reaganlegacy.org/record/Cato/SUPPLY-SIDE%20TAX%20CUTS%20AND%20THE%20TRUTH%20ABOUT%20THE%20REAGAN %20ECONOMIC%20RECORD.htm

I stand by my former statement. There are so many intricacies of our economy that it's impossible to know the cause.

-mk

[niv]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Goal for this week: Stay on Topic.
Repeat after me... Stay on Topic.

do what i do in latin class! chant it so many times such that you don't forget it! :D;):p

[Bruce]

commoror thema in
commoror thema in
commoror thema in
commoror thema in
commoror thema in :D :p

[niv]

i mean more along the lines of:

is ea id! eius eius eius! ei ei ei! eum eam id! eo ea eo!
ei eae ea! eorum earum eorum! eis eis eis! eos eas ea! eis eis eis! :D ;) :p

[Todd]

What the hell ever happened to communication? I mean, there is a little button on EVERY post of mine to pm (private message) me. Why not just write a little note and tell me that you are offended by my avatar?

It would have been nice if it could have been handled that way but even if you removed it on your own we would still go through this again the next time someone posted an avatar that was questionable. At least this way we should end up with a clearly defined rule on it and we can go on with normal posting.

[JaMiH]

So Having an Avatar that is offensive to someone is not acceptable here. OR having an Avatar Directly related to a person is not acceptable?

For Example I have a Avatar of an Artist which is messed up by putting fangs and stuff and User X thinks its offensive to him since that artist is his rolemodel or something. Is that Prohibited here?

[Todd]

You'll have to wait until we can make a rule based on this. Right now I don't care what is used as long as its not obscene and no one complains. If complaints are received then we would have to deal with it.

That is only until a clear rule is set which may take some time. Please have patience until Peo makes a new rule.

[Mandrake]

Originally posted by bigperm

The cross-buster... Logo for Bad Religion, the greatest band EVER. Their songs helped me deal with a lot in my life, and they really have a great message, and they use big words. This is the light at the end of the Reagen/Hitler/Jesus tunnel for me... for everybody else... it is probably a sacreligious icon that mock's Christ and Christianity. But it's not your avatar, and it's not making you think some way, and it's not forcing anything down your throat.



Well, they're not necessarily the "greatest band EVER" in my book, but I do like Bad Religion...

I also am of the Christian faith... :)

[bigperm]

From an interview with Greg Graffin, Lead Singer for Bad Religion

You're the target of a lot of religious groups because of the name of the band and because you often seem to attack religions.

Our name dates back to the time when we were just 15 or 16-year-old kids, we wanted to provoke and attract attention. The name's something that stuck. Big deal! People get offended by little things like the name of a band, but they don't seem to get offended by real injustice. 'A war? So what else is new? A band with the name Bad Religion? That's terrible!' That's so hypocritical. I don't tell people what to believe and I don't attack their beliefs, but I never agreed with organized religions. Maybe I felt stronger about it when I was younger. It's ok for me if people believe in god, but I don't. I don't try to turn them into atheists. Everybody has to find their own answers....People hate what they don't know, very often they are scared of the unknown and hate seems to be a way out. People tend to fear what they don't know and they try to destroy what they fear. Obsession and fanatism are very scary, they blind people. That's one of the reasons why we've never encouraged our fans to start something like a cult .For me it would be an insult if our fans would take my lyrics as a religion.


To stay on topic though, yes Todd, you are doing a fine job... Any Idea when the verdict is in on the avatar? And has anybody noticed that my sig is an exact texual description of what my avatar was... but it is still there? And nobody cares?

[Todd]

So far there is no new rule in terms of your avatar. I personally don't find it offensive to be honest but very little would offend me. I don't take things personally though but other mights. Overall most members really don't seem to care what your avatar is.

We do need a new rule on what you can and can't use for an avatar but until that rule is created go ahead and use the avatar.

In discussion with other moderators we personally don't find it offensive and realize that some might. So my solution to those who found it offensive is to turn off avatars in your profile.

It would be different if we were forcing you to use avatars but we're not so you have my go ahead to use it again until a rule is made. I'm guessing that at that point you'll still be able to but I'm not 100% sure as that choice is Peo's and not mine.

If you are offended by it go to your User CP > Edit Options > Show user's avatar in their posts? > and select No. If his signature offends you I would suggest turning off signatures as well.

If you don't like this choice please feel free to voice your opinion. I believe that if you are truly offended that much by it you shouldn't have a problem with turning off avatars.

This is much like the people who complain about violence on TV. If you don't like the violence during a specific TV show don't watch the show. It might be a tad simplistic on my part but it works.

[bigperm]

Now that I can put that avatar back... I kinda feel an obligation to, but at the same time, I think it is time for me to change it. So it is back for now, until I get a better one, or get sick of looking at it.

Probably by the time that Peo makes a descision, it will be changes, but either way there does need to be some say as to what you can and can't have... just to clarify things.

[Giancarlo]

I really don't care anymore, as I know putting Reagan in the picture is false.

[bigperm]

False?

[Giancarlo]

In my opinion, Reagan does not belong in that picture, more like Jimmy Carter does.

[lucifer]

boolean politics :D

[bigperm]

In my opinion, Reagan does not belong in that picture If he wasn't in that picture... then it wouldn't be that picture... that's the way art goes.

[Giancarlo]

You just did it to harass me. :mad:

[bigperm]

No, lucifer's avatar was to harass you. This avatar was and is for me... get over yourself.

[Giancarlo]

I had Reagan in my avatar a long time before you did.

[lucifer]

Originally posted by bigperm
No, lucifer's avatar was to harass you.


don't drag me into this ...

[Giancarlo]

You aren't being dragged into anything... I was just pointing out that I had Reagan in my avatar longer than Bigperm did and I jump to conclusions.

[bigperm]

Sorry about that lucifer...


I had Reagan in my avatar a long time before you did. So? I have Hitler, Jesus and the Logo for Bad Religion in my avatar... did you have any of those? No... So are you trying to imply that I copied your avatar? Sorry... didn't happen. I made it for me, you are deluding yourself if you think I did it for you.

[Giancarlo]

I know I just feel that it is improper that you put Reagan in the your avatar it doesn't make sense. I was just jumping to the conclusion that you are insulting my idol.

[gyrbo]

Welcome back Todd, you've been gone for a while havn't you?

[Todd]

Welcome back Todd, you've been gone for a while havn't you?

I'm always around on the boards. You would probably only see me on the Who's Online list because I rarely post unless its necessary. I just scan over the posts and make sure everything is going ok.

BigPerms motive is not in question here. Only he knows his motive at this point and if anyone else says his motive was for X and X purpose that's speculation on their part. It's not quite as straight forward as the other avatar that was mentioned.

Either way the decision has been made that he may use it again so lets not drag up old issues.

[Giancarlo]

Well you are going to know that I find it offensive that he has Reagan in there.

[Todd]

Perhaps BigPerm finds it offensive that Bush isn't in yours. I'm sure you see my point on this. If everyone agreed on an issue there would be no debates and a whole lot less threads.

You'll probably never see 100% agreement from a large group of random people. If it was a direct personal attack on you we would censor it but it's not so we're not censoring it. If one of the people who is actually pictured in the picture complains to us then we would remove it. :)

[bigperm]

. If one of the people who is actually pictured in the picture complains to us then we would remove it. If Jesus comes back, and tells me to take him out of it, I will gladly remove it myself.

[lucifer]

lol :D

[bigperm]

Hitler and Reagan though... will have to talk to the mods...

[Giancarlo]

The fact is Hitler never committed suicide and fled to.... Paraguay. He is still alive also. I'll send him an letter. And I have to talk to 90 Year Old Reagan about this... :rolleyes:

[Gayowulf]

I know this is probably inappropriate, and out of place; Remove it if it is a problem


I think someone needs to stop creaming themselves over political leaders and get a life. There is much more to life, and it should probably be enjoyed in other ways. Maybe i am not one to lecture on this.

[Webdude]

Well, as a Christian I find it offensive to have Hitler alongside Jesus. Hitler ordered the killings of those people, Jesus did not even though killings were done in his name.

However, that is my personal feelings. So tough luck. I can't make everyone else believe what I believe, and everyone has a right to his own belief. Hence, I would be in disagreement to making the rules stricter just because someones opinions differ with my own. My view is that any avatar is ok as long as it is not disgusting or vulgar...or lets say not past PG-13.

Currently there is a big debate on WHT about signatures as to whether to tighten up the rules or get rid of them. They already got rid of the avatars. I prefer to not see FWS go down that route...it's getting outright stupid over there. So I think I should lock this thread before it gets to that....