Major Victory For Drug War!

[Giancarlo]

WASHINGTON, June 20 — A drug bust in Indianapolis in 1999 appeared at first to be a single case of cocaine trafficking. But over the next 18 months, authorities say, they found a drug operation that stretched from Colombia to Mexico and on to 17 U.S. cities and was suspected in 60 murders. On Wednesday, the Drug Enforcement Administration announced that it had crushed the ring, allegedly the main pipeline for much of the cocaine shipped to the South and the Midwest.

http://a799.ms.akamai.net/3/799/388/e3db286b6d4bc3/www.msnbc.com/news/1062980.jpg

It also appears that the Mexican Police are arresting scores of people, it seems that this was a major victory for the drug war, that some say couldn't be won.

[bigperm]

Yes, the drug war is stupid www.stopthedrugwar.com

[Giancarlo]

The Drug War is to free America from pot-smokers. The Drug war is the best thing to happen to America to eliminate the problem. Now President Fox is cracking down on his Mexico's drug problem, where the drugs are produced.. the problem will decline. I have also heard a Right-Wing Extremist is gaining popularity in Colombia, who proposes to go on a military spending spree to end the Civil War in Colombia. He then said he would build up the economy.

I predict this Drug War will be won for the US in twenty years.

[Todd]

Attached chart from CNN and courtesy of the Drug Enforcement Administration.

I'm sure they got this from stings where they would try and see how much it'd cost but I can already see it on Family Feud, We surveyed 100 drug dealers to find out the top 10 occupational health hazards... :D

Seriously though, do you think it's even worth the time and money we put in to stopping the drug wars? I think it's worth it to educate people about what it will do to you but if after that point they still choose to take drugs it's their business unless they drive under the influence or commit an illegal crime in which case I say lock them up and throw away the key.

By stopping drugs coming in the US your going to increase the prices for them. Sounds good at first until you realize these drugs are addictive and they will go to any lengths to get them. In my eyes that means that when they become strung out and need their fix they'd resort to violence to obtain more drugs which would probably just cause more problems.

The only thing the government should really do is:
1. Educate the people about it.
2. Increase the punishment for people that are caught for committing a serious crime and are drug users. I would classify driving under the influence of narcotics a serious crime.

[Giancarlo]

We need to attack Colombia's Rebels and soon. They produce 80% of these Drugs. And if this Right-Winger gets elected and orders like 80 SU-25s from Russia it can be ended. Fujimori did it in Peru on his Sukhoi Strike Purchase, he reduced drug production by 80%. We need to sell Colombia strike aircraft and bombers and we need to bomb the heck out of the FARC, ELN, Paramilitaries and Drug Producers alike, but the FARC basicallly took over the Drug Fields. If the Colombian Armed Forces, wins battles like it has, the Colombian Civil War will be over in twenty years or less.

[bigperm]

The Drug War is to free America from pot-smokers. Yes... those pot smoking hippies are doing so much harm...

[Mandrake]

This is the position I agree with:

http://www.lp.org/issues/relegalize.html

[bigperm]

A few reads for you guys...

The Cannibis FAQ from erowid... Tell the real reason pot is illegal
http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_faq1.shtml

Grow More Pot, a transcript of a Jello Biafra spoken word, off of his cd "I blow minds for a living...
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2503/lyrics01.html

[Todd]

I more or less agree with Mandrake's viewpoint but I feel the government should sell it and tax it very highly much like they do with cigarettes. Without all the expenses and mark ups by the drug dealers it would still be cheaper and you would put the dealers out of business while the government would see a profit from it.

The only catch is that we would need strict regulations on its use and driving. We would also need to punish those who are under the influence while committing a crime.

The government would also have to set an age limit on it like smoking or alcohol just to make sure that children don't start using drugs before they can fully realize what it will do to them.

[Giancarlo]

Maybe we should develop toxins that kill all illegal drugs. And just illegal drugs, so we could spray it over Colombia and end this problem effectively. What we need to do is increase prision sentences for carrying or using drugs and in the next Colombian Elections, a Right-Wing Extremist, who is going to buy tons of military equipiment for Colombia will incinerate the drug-producing regions in Colombia. Legalization drugs will be the stupidest thing a nation could ever do.

What we need is a coordinated effort using the Militaries of most nations that are friendly towards the United States and wipe out the production of drugs.

The Libertarian Party is a party filled with crack heads, no purpose there, nor will there ever be. The Republicans have one goal and that is the defeat this problem, the drug war which can be won.

[niv]

i dont see why everyone is so worked up about this. the number one drug is circulating legally in the united states, and that's tobacco. legalization of marijuana would be a step forwards. it's the person's fault for getting mixed up in it in the first place. too bad.

[Giancarlo]

Tobacco is legalized. You said legalized, I think you mean illegalization.

The problem is grave, and I don't want to see Americans dying from drugs. There is one element that the other side may have correct and that is teaching people not to take drugs in the first place.

[niv]

yes, but unfortunately, results from the DARE program from the united states, which teaches youngsters not to smoke, etc. when they are young, show that they have not been so successful in the last 10-12 years or so

[Giancarlo]

It is so sad to see so many Americans suffer at the hands of Drugs.... maybe we should get our act together and teach the citizens that they would be better off without them.

Right now, selling Cigarrettes to Minors is a Misdemeanor and a Felony. The same goes for Beer.

Back to Crack:
This is the first drug bust I have seen in the US for ages.

In Argentina, the Border Guards which is very powerful and which has been given extra authority to search anyone they want without a warrent have seized tons and tons of drugs. They have been arresting people daily for trying to get drugs in the country, and I have been in every part of Buenos Aires, and have not seen any sold on the street. Buenos Aires is a megaopolis bigger than NY and LA. Maybe Argentines don't want drugs in their country?

[Todd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Legalization drugs will be the stupidest thing a nation could ever do.
You can't police stupdity. I was told this along time ago and it's very true. You can try ane educate the consumer about what it does to them and it will work but it'll be a long mission.

If drugs were treated like tobacco then we could tax them, put huge warning labels on the packages, and so on. Will that stop people from using them? Absolutely not but then people can't complain that they didn't know of the side effects.

The key is to put the dealers out of business by eliminating their market because they can't compete with the government.

I'm curious Giancarlo, what is your take on alcohol? Should it be illegal as well?

[bigperm]

Just so you guys know... I have been busted for drugs... small possesion and paraphenalia. I have been through the system. I wasn't doing anybody harm... in fact, I was the DD for that night, so that nobody drove home drunk.

Giancarlo, you obviously know nothing about drugs... I think you should leave this one alone.

Saying that the entire libretarian party is on crack is slander and I might have to call my laywer.

[Giancarlo]

I do know what drugs are, I been to Colombia and watched troops burn crop after crop while on a tour of Government Forces who captured territory. I been to Colombia, Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia. The Center-stage where all is grown. But a fine example of Winning is Peru and Bolivia, production of drugs has been reduced by 80% and will continue to be reduced. Colombia needs to follow the same route. I was there with my dad and gave words of support to the Colombian Armed Forces to incinerate more and more fields and to capture more territory.

Selling alcohol to minors is illegal and the person should receive the maximum sentence for the crime. Alcohol should be taken in moderation, and being over a specific level in the system should get the person arrested.

[niv]

listen, people break laws all the time. what makes you think the drug wars are doing any good? there still is a great wave of drugs coming into the united states.

[Giancarlo]

Break laws all the time? Not with this Justice system. You want to have felony under your name by breaking rules? People follow the laws in this country. I am afraid of drugs coming in the United States, maybe I should head the DEA.

[niv]

you'll need a lot of luck. if you are the main cause of anything considered illegal or unconstitutional during your control over the DEA, you're out of a job bub

[Giancarlo]

I will probably be charged with Abuse of Power.... by declaring war against everyone that I suspect.

[bigperm]

I am sure you know what drugs are... but you don't know about drugs... I do... I know about a lot of drugs, I know what they are and what they do... If I haven't done them, then I have seen them done. You, on the other hand know nothing about drugs, all you have is you right-wing-hippy-haters manual that says that all drugs are bad no matter what.

How many people have died this year from tobacco and alchohol? A bunch, how many people have died, total from smoking pot? O.

Some drugs are bad no matter what... some drugs can be bad, and some can be good. Look at Amsterdam... they nearly legalized smoking pot and hash and hard drug use (crack, coke, heroin) has fallen to nearly nothing.

[niv]

that's true. and the legalization of currently illegal drugs may help lower crime (id est assault and battery, murder, gang wars)

[Giancarlo]

Or more people could get drugs, especially kids so they can act "cool". And do you have a problem with my political beliefs? I don't go around saying stuff about you being some leftist Nut.

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO THE FRONT LINES IN THE DRUG WAR? I HAVE.

[bigperm]

HAVE YOU EVER BEEN TO THE FRONT LINES IN THE DRUG WAR? I HAVE. Umm, YES! I was busted... I am a victim of it, I WAS THERE! Have you ever been shot at cause you were at a paty with a few black people? Called a '------ lover'? Have you ever had a friend die in a car crash during what was supposed to be the greatest summer of your life? Have you experienced anything outisde of you little 'Giancarlo world'? Do you know anything about what it is really like here? Or how cool it is to eat five caps and go to a club with a laser light show?

NO.

Don't talk to me.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Alcohol should be taken in moderation, and being over a specific level in the system should get the person arrested.

I'm sure you realized I was going here when I asked the question but what is the difference between using alcohol in moderation and drugs in moderation?

Would it be better if drugs didn't exist in society? Yes, I believe so but you can't stop them as is. People know of them and if they can't get the normal drugs they'll go to house hold solvents that will give them a temp. high. For society you are better off with legalizing drugs and then just creating laws to protect society and to punish drug users who are committing crimes while under the influence.

I could care less what you do as a person on your own time as long as it doesn't interfere with someone else’s life in a negative way. If the drug user isn't harming anyone else by his or her use I don't see the problem. It's their body and they are free to do as they please to it. The only exception that I can think of off the top of my head is pregnancy. Pregnancy and drug use should be outlawed because of the birth defects in my opinion.

[niv]

Giancarlo, cool it. The drug war is not only in the countries that produce it, but the cities where the drugs are distributed, and the routes along which the drugs travel. you know what? yes, i have been on the front lines of the drug war. all i have to do is hop on the subway and travel to the drug and crime infested areas of new york. not too far away from me, i'd say about 5-10 miles.

[Giancarlo]

We need to attack the Colombian Guerrillas to end this... you really are a bunch of Drug-Loving Liberals, well I am Conserative. Respect my beliefs for once.

I was near combat lines in the Colombian Civil War, I had a bigger chance of being killed BigPERM!

[niv]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Respect my beliefs for once.


Maybe you should do the same for us too.

[Giancarlo]

I have.
You just went on the assault on my pro-Drug War Beliefs.

[niv]

Well, those are our beliefs.

[Giancarlo]

I was given my support to the Colombian Army and so was my Dad, so that shows the US Pro-Drug War Stance. It won't change. The Colombian Army will shut the Rebels and Drug market down.

[bigperm]

Respect my beliefs for once. Your beliefs are putting people like me in jail for no reason. You get more jail time for a sugar cube of acid than for killing someone. And we wonder why we have prison overcrowding and violent repeat offeneders. Respect me and my right to make informed descision about what I put into my body.

[Giancarlo]

You HAVE NO RIGHT TO INFLUENCE ANY ONE AROUND YOU, SO NO I WON'T RESPECT YOUR RIGHT TO USE DRUGS!

[bigperm]

Influence anyone around me? Shut up. I never said anything about anybody else except myself. You act like I am going to start passing out rocks at the middle school.

If you think I don't have the right to influence anybody around me, then neither do you, so quit trying to influence us to adopt your fascist viewpoint.

[Giancarlo]

And quit trying to convince me of believing your phony Pro-Green, Pro-Liberal Beliefs. What a joke... :mad:

[Todd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You HAVE NO RIGHT TO INFLUENCE ANY ONE AROUND YOU...
So I guess that whole Freedom of Speech thing doesn't apply to BigPerm...? He has the right to say his viewpoint as do you. Rather then throw the same viewpoint down the throat please explain why you feel that way and back it up with facts. It's the best way to win a debate.

[niv]

Yelling won't help you win a debate, and neither will denying other people's rights.

[Giancarlo]

Those who bring drugs into this country already gave up their rights.

[bigperm]

Giancarlo... what about beer companies that cause all of those DUI fatalities, do they have no rights? Maybe you are unfamliar with it, but in America we all have some unalienable rights. MAybe in your south american country they take away people's rights that easily, but not here because we believe in the freedom of the human spirit.

[Giancarlo]

So you can smoke drugs and get drunk?
Those are not the rights that we should be given.

With this nation and every other nation so everyone can become just like you smoking crack and getting drunk. Well NOT WHEN I AM ALIVE!

[niv]

Really? People get drunk all the time. Even during times of prohibition, for example during the Great Depression in the U.S. Hell, bootlegging during prohibition shows that it doesn't work. So be it.

[Todd]

Giancarlo if you aren't going to debate on this topic I wouldn't recommend repeating yourself again and again. All your posts are going to lead to personal attacks and I've been censoring them.

I can appreciate what end result you want to achieve but you need to argue for your viewpoint. When you state your opinion you should be able to say why you feel that way and then the issue can be debated back and forth. I'm right your wrong arguments will get you no where.

[Mandrake]

Originally posted by Giancarlo

The Libertarian Party is a party filled with crack heads, no purpose there, nor will there ever be.

I do not use crack or any other sort of illegal drug... But I do not believe it's my place to tell others what they can and can't do. And I'm tired of all the crime and other BS that's come as a result of this "war on drugs".



The Republicans have one goal and that is the defeat this problem, the drug war which can be won.

And while they focus their energy on that, everything else in the country goes to hell in a bucket! :(

[bigperm]

With this nation and every other nation so everyone can become just like you smoking crack and getting drunk. Well NOT WHEN I AM ALIVE! First off... I have never and will never smoke crack, that is one of the around the clock bad drugs. I get drunk, I get whacky drunk, and I enjoy it. And something tells me that people are goingt o get drunk and even smoke crack in your lifetime, and something also tells me that there is nothing you can do about it. Giancarlo, the martyr of sobriety.

[Toefur]

Okay, I just wanna say one little thing here...

It really really annoys me when people are like, "Hey... im a good person, I dont do drugs... but i do drink, and get drunk quite often!" sorta thing.

Come on! Alcohol is a drug! It is just as bad (bad being my opinion; maybe I should say: it is similar in effects and why people use it) as most other drugs!

The only think that differentiates alcohol from the others is the legality of it.

That, and also, why is everyone so much in favour of alcohol? Because it has become a common, general, mainstream thing.

Most people drink and get drunk, because most peoples parents influence it on them, everyone does it. People are raised around a life of seeing getting drunk as the thing to do.

It would be the same for say, acid! If alcohol were illegal, and acid was taken like alcohol is... people would be saying, "Now... I never ever do alcohol, but I trip on acid all the time, and it's great!"

Same thing.

[Gayowulf]

The one thing i find strange is that it is illegal to sell alcohol/cigarettes to minors, but it is not illegal for minors to use them.

My viewpoint on marijuana use is: so many people use it, grow it and sell it and dont get caught that it might as well be legalized. I'm sure legalization would lead to government outlets and such, and legalization may even stop some of the crime.

[Giancarlo]

but it is not illegal for minors to use them

That is called a loop-hole in our justice system.

[bigperm]

It is very illegal for minors to use alchohol in America. If you have a blood-alchohol level of just .01 and you are not yet 21, you get busted with underage drinking.

[jason]

bottom line, no one will win the drug war until the demand for drugs end. supply and demand. even if you kill every person in columbia there will always be someone else willing to step up. WHat we have to look at is what causes someone to abuse drugs (and i'm talking about hard drugs like coke, heroin ect), most likely there is some kind of past trama that the person cannot deal with.

Criminalizing marijuana is just stupid. yes with some ppl it is a gateway drug but these are ppl with problems that were there before drugs. I don't think it should be totally legalized but you shouldn't have to go to jail for smoking or growing plants for yourself.

Think about this, we've been figting this drug war since the 30's and spending over 10 billion per year since the 80's. And things keep getting worse, more addicts, younger kids getting involved. The "war on drugs" isn't changing a damn thing.

[Haze]

The drug war is a very bad thing. The reason why Marijuana is illegal, is because of the racist actions of polotitions in the 30's. There are no bad reactions to pot. Only 1% of pot smokers go on to harder drugs. People that put down pot smokers, are uneducated about its uses and effects. It is sad to see that so many people have fell victom to the drug war. The drug war only makes it worse. Here is an interesting piece of info: http://www.canada.com/cgi-bin/cp.asp?f=/news/cp/stories/20010611/health-723025.html

I think that everyone needs to take a look at what they are fighting against. Its like the Vietnam war, and yes i would compare it to that. I myself am a Cannabis ReLegalization Crusader, and have dedicated my life to it. I will not rest untill there is change. Also, if you do your research you will find that a lot of religions (yes even christianity) have used Cannabis In some form or another.. A great book to read ( that australian customs took away from me) is the Emporor wears not clothes.. excellent historical look at the uses of Cannabis.

[Haze]

Originally posted by bigperm
First off... I have never and will never smoke crack, that is one of the around the clock bad drugs. I get drunk, I get whacky drunk, and I enjoy it. And something tells me that people are goingt o get drunk and even smoke crack in your lifetime, and something also tells me that there is nothing you can do about it. Giancarlo, the martyr of sobriety.

Its unfortunate that people like Giancarlo, dont even know the difference between cannabis and crack.. thats just another bad think about the war on drugs..

[Haze]

I just thought i might share some more information on Cannabis with you people:

1. In north america, state and provicial governemts ( even federal in Canada) are giving permission to people ( including my family members) to use Marijuana to help aid the effects of terminal illness. They are also arresting these same people for using the drug, they gave permission for them to use. Is that right? NO!

2. In order to over dose using cannabis you need 40, 000 Cigarette sized joints all in one go, which is humanly impossible, and even then you would die of only carbon monoxide poison.

3. Cannabis was made illegal in the 30's because polotitions found that people of colour were using it and felt that would be a bad influence on white people.

4. Cannabis is the most usable, renewable, and strogest natural resource in the world.

5. Cannabis seeds contain more protien than Soy.

6. Cannabis has never killed anyone.

7. If you open your eyes and do some research, you will surprise yourself. Dont base your opinions off of what your teachers or government, or tv network say. Self education, is the only true form of education.

I thought i might also point out a few sites with further info:
CannabisCulture.com
pot-tv.net
Cannabis.com
yahooka.com
nimbinaustralia.com
marijuanaparty.com

[lucifer]

A war on drugs will never work as it just increases the us and them situation. Turning good people into criminals because of the fact that they use drugs. This just helps alienate the police etc who have to enforce these controls.

Drugs should be legalized (in a controlled way) so that users can get clean drugs and that the money can bypass the unscrupulous types who money tends to attract.

People will use drugs whatever the penalties and tougher penalties just make people more entrenched and dangerous

crime is committed by a minority of drug users. Most people who use drugs don't have a problem with them and go to work etc

the ones that do have a problem tend to cause major problems in society - committing large amounts of crime to support their habits.

what is needed is for more help and support for people with these problems to enable them to cope with their drug use - for most who reach this point abstinence is often the only solution, although especially with opiods maintenance scripts can be helpful (even if people remain dependent)

governments are not prepared to make the shifts necessary to allow this to happen. Most detox etc is only available in a limited form and this tends to be set up in ways that chaotic drug users often find very hard to engage with especially having to be referred by agencies (often not trusted) and having long wait times before treatments. Also there is a prevalence of faith based approaches which though very good for some are not appropriate to the needs of many
money should be targeted at users who wish to do something about their drug use not at small subsistence farmers in counties with few other opportunities.

Social prejudices do not help - people who have jobs are often prevented from accessing it because they could loose their jobs if people found out. This leads to them developing bigger problems.

Also one important point that has not been raised is about why people use drugs.
Many people who have drug problems also have mental health issues. there is an argument that says this is because of the drug use - in some instances cannabis/amphetamine/crack caused psychosis is due to the drug use - even if the drug probably exasperated some underlying mental health issues. However many people with mental health problems (often undiagnosed) use illegal drugs to self medicate. Unfortunately this then gets them into problems of addiction and makes them criminals. If you had voices in your head telling you to kill yourself if you found something that made them go away for a few hours you'd take them.

people with drug/mental health problems are notoriously difficult to treat due to the conflicts between criminal/health departments and the general view that they are the responsibility of the other. Many mental health units will not treat people using drugs and drug agencies will often not work with people who have untreated mental health issues.


I used to work with people including mentally disordered offenders and drug users and had regular meetings with local government, police, criminal justice system, drug/alcohol projects, mental health services etc. I also know many drug users socially (many of who would be considered model citizens)

[Haze]

What a heartless fool.. i was trying to have a civilised conversation and then whoop there it is:


Re: please read
Unfornately, druggy, a overwhelming majority of Americans tend to agree with me. They want to keep drugs illegal. And didn't the Supreme Court pass something banning use of drugs for medical purposes not to long ago? LISTEN TO ME YOU KNOW-IT-ALL ****ING FOOL, MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WANT DRUGS ILLEGAL BECAUSE IT WILL SCREW WITH THE NATION'S CULTURE AND SCREW THE FUTURE GENERATIONS, BY SCREWING WITH PEOPLE'S MINDS.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

evilhaze wrote on 06-25-2001 08:38 PM:
As i stated you obviously are not educated in the area of "drugs". For one i do not smoke CRACK, I have been given LEGAL status to use Marijuana/Cannabis/Ganja to relieve my medical conditions. Noone has ever died from using Marijuana, only shot by government officials. Why are more and more people finding that Marijuana Should be legal, Including GOVERNMENTS? I think you really need to do a lot more research before you go about with your propaganda.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


__________________
Giancarlo - Future Politican
Military Anaylst and Politican
The Site is delayed due to the crash of my HardDisk

[Giancarlo]

That was kept private because it is called private messaging. I know not to have any more of a conversation with someone who calls me wrong in every way I think. I am Republican and live with it.

[Haze]

Good, i dont want to hear any more of the bull---- propaganda that comes out of your mouth anyways.

[Giancarlo]

And I don't want to hear the bull---- propaganda that comes out of your mouth either.

[Haze]

You know i must say, you will make a great politition, always hiding the truth, with not one care about the people.. Good luck to you.

[Giancarlo]

And its like your Diarrahea Mouth holds any promise for the people. I care for the people because I don't want them smoking drugs.

[Haze]

Well your approach is basically pouring the smoke down your peoples Lungs, your approach is creating a war and killing more poeple than necissary. If God didnt want us to use Drugs, he would not have placed them on this earth. I for one will not stand by and watch this holocaust take place. Im with the growing 65% that believe it should be legal.

[jason]

giancarlo while i respect your opinions you always speak in terms of political parties views and agendas, while i suppose your intrested in politics have you ever considered looking at the facts and making your own decisions instead of just taking the view of republican because thats how you vote and its easier? oh and the statement you made earlier in the thread "The Drug War is to free America from pot-smokers" just shows how uneducated you are about how the laws came into place.

[Giancarlo]

Funny, how all the people responding to me are either from Australia or Canada. Your political system is different. 65% of the Population want its illegal, not the other way around.

[Haze]

yet another undeducated answer....

[Giancarlo]

undeducated? Huh? I think that is a spelling error.

Uneducated. Your answers are uneducated.

[Haze]

heh, your correcting my spelling? I would have another look at some of your wording before you make more of a fool of your self. And your not doing a good job of ignoring me, now are you?

[Toefur]

If God didnt want us to use Drugs, he would not have placed them on this earth.

Evilhaze - Never use "God" to support an arguement that is not religion related; because it simply has no merits and no standing; as a large number of the other people (such as myself) totally reject the concept of "God".

1. In north america, state and provicial governemts ( even federal in Canada) are giving permission to people ( including my family members) to use Marijuana to help aid the effects of terminal illness. They are also arresting these same people for using the drug, they gave permission for them to use. Is that right? NO!

Could be right... could be wrong... morality is subjective ;)

2. In order to over dose using cannabis you need 40, 000 Cigarette sized joints all in one go, which is humanly impossible, and even then you would die of only carbon monoxide poison.

So maybe people won't overdose on it; but there is plenty of other harm it can do. A stoned person behind the wheel of a car... not a good thing, eh?

Pot smoke has 70% more cancer-causing chemicals than tobacco smoke.

The active chemical in it, THC, is a psychoactive. I can't remember the word, but there is actually quite a large number of marijuana smokers that really get ----ed up from it (pyschosis is it?); and turn themselves into a vegetable.

As well as driving, there are many bouts of stupidity people can do whilst under the influence; I knew these guys that got stoned and broke into somebody's house and stole a bunch of things... normally they wouldn't do such a thing.. but hey! They were stoned... so it's cool!

3. Cannabis was made illegal in the 30's because polotitions found that people of colour were using it and felt that would be a bad influence on white people.

That's the 30's, this is the new century. Do you really think that the reasons for illegality are still the same?

4. Cannabis is the most usable, renewable, and strogest natural resource in the world.

The problem with bringing things up like this; is that it's out of context with most pot smokers. Why? Because they don't use it in the sense in which it has any benifit. They smoke it to get stupid; it's really got nothing to do with those facts.


5. Cannabis seeds contain more protien than Soy.

As above. How many pot smokers know this? It's got nothing to do with the situation. Maybe we should make it legal so people can eat the Cannabis-soy-beens, and get nice and healthy; rather than smoke it, get high, and act stupid?

Tho, however, when the seeds are eaten, is there active THC in them?

6. Cannabis has never killed anyone.

How do you know? I bet it has! Maybe not documented, and maybe not directly.

If marijuana were legal, it would mean there would be a large increase in people being under the influence in public. So, just like alcohol, drunk drivers that kill so many people... we could have stoned drivers with their pathetic reaction times, killing people.

Many other stupid things, that could kill people; i've known pot smokers to do.

7. If you open your eyes and do some research, you will surprise yourself. Dont base your opinions off of what your teachers or government, or tv network say. Self education, is the only true form of education.

You should do the same. Don't base your opinion on some pro-marijuana sites.

I've noticed that the majority of pro-marijiana sites, they go out saying all these great and wonderful things that marijuana does... but there is one problem there... they don't tackle the problems that smoking marijuana does.

Sure, it's got more protein than soy beans... but no marijuana smokers smoke it for it's wholesome goodness!

Sure, it's good for some people who are terminally ill and in lots of pain... but all the people that want it legalised, don't want to escape pain; they want to go and get high!

[Giancarlo]

Pot smoke has 70% more cancer-causing chemicals than tobacco smoke.

Bingo!

[jason]

where do you get that info from? i wouldn't think marijuana has any chemicals in it naturally. cigarettes whoever have many chemicals placed into them such as cyanide, formaldehyde and benzene and it says that right on the pack. marijuana however does have more tar i believe, but ppl smoke many more cigarettes that they would joints. we will never all agree, nor should we. there are many different viewpoints but giancarlo sounds like a programed computer so willing to put blind faith into a political party of a country he doesn't even live in. myself, i'm a human being i don't condsider my self liberal, conservative or whatever the hell useless political parties are out there. just think for yourself and question authority.

[Haze]

All your statements are wrong and for one, British Government Studies have proven that Stoned Drivers are safer drivers. As far as the 70% more chemicals, pot smokers smoke less than tobacco smokers, and Pot does not have to be smoked, it is an herb and should be used as one. As far as not including god, if you are a cristian like i was, and do your research in the bible, you will find that Marijuana or Cannabis has had a lot of usages. If your not cristian I do some research on your religion and you WILL be surprised.

[Todd]

If it was legalized and they warned of the contents then pot smokers would have no one to blame other then themselves.

Legalizing it is the most logical thing if the government takes control and runs it like a business. To recap my old stated reasons you wouldn't have to spend the billions on stopping it if it was legal, you would eliminate a lot of the crimes that go along with smuggling it and selling it, and you would remove the power of most gangs because they wouldn't be making so much money they could do as they please. Gangs could still exist but you greatly reduce their power when you reduce their money.

There would have to have incredibly tight laws regarding its usage to prevent people who are under the influence of a narcotic from leaving their homes, bar, or wherever it was taken.

There is one main flaw in my theory that no one pointed out, there needs to be on the fly testing for it like they do with breathalyzers. Perhaps better technology exists for this I really don't know but I believe the only testing is by taking a blood sample and/or urine sample. Not very practical if a cop pulls someone over whom he believes to be under the influence of a narcotic.

I don't think we're ever going to win the drug war as is. The whole capitalist system is supply and demand and the drug market works the same way. As long as people are addicted to the effect of the drug they will find a way to achieve it. So you eliminate marijuana what next? They'll move on to another drug and they'll keep going as eliminated and eventually they may just use an over the counter solution for their temp high.

Education is the best method, as you can't police stupidity. Others are free to do whatever they please to themselves as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else and that individual isn't pregnant.

[lucifer]

a few points

Todd - they have developed a dope breath tester.

smoking cannabis is bad for you - worse than cigarettes, this is mainly due to not having a filter and so getting more crap from the tobacco than you normally would - all sensible people would agree smoking cannabis is bad for you. eating it is far less distructive.

cannabis psychosis is a problem but it affects the miniority of users and tends to be triggered early on during experimentation rather than being progressive (unlike amphetamine psychosis - which developes with sustained use) cannabis psychosis is strongly linked to an underlying schizophrenia which it triggers. schizophrenics should avoid cannabis as it does not interact well.
additionally cannabis can interact with many psychiatric medications.

people who drink tend to get violent, distructive, drive at high speed and kill people (this is all part of the alcohol culture)

people who smoke cannabis tend to sit around not doing much and eat lots of munchies. being on the whole less distructive to society.

yes people on drugs should not drive (that is already in the legislation of most countries)

[Haze]

cannabis psychosis only happens if you have a pre-existing mental disorder. Sometimes people do not realise that they have a mental disorder and then figure that cannabis caused it.

[kojiro]

Many crimes are drug-related so I am completely against its legalization!

I have heard people killing their own mothers because their mother would give them drug money. :mad:

So some of you might say "I am smoking pot but not hurting anyone." Drugs affect each individual differently. Like not everyone who drinks beer become alcoholics.

There are many who use drugs become a warfreak afterwards. He/she wouldn't hesitate to hurt anyone.

Drugs are for losers.

[Haze]

Yes, many crimes are drug related! Exactly! Its illegal, therefor a crime. If it were legal, laws would be in place to protect people under the age of legal consent, which would mean less teens and children using drugs. There would also be a lot more education about drugs as in most areas of the world it is illegal to have documentation about drugs. How can you educate if you don't have any documentation? In Canada right now, people are winning the war. The government allows people with illnesses to use cannabis, but do not provide them with the means in which to get it. Therefor they have to get it off of the streets, where it can be laced with Chemicals and god knows what. All around the world Drug laws are being relaxed. Belgium for one has just legalized Cannabis. Go have take a trip to one of the most beautiful cities in the world Amsterdam, or better yet Harlem ( excuse my spelling). Hell, even George Washington Used and grew pot. Not only for its high but for its many other uses. If you look at the history of the United States you will find that it was used EXTENSIVLY over the ages. Im not trying to say that every drug should be legal. No, but if its natural, like Cannabis, Mushrooms, Payote ( which is legal in Canada ), Then man should have no right to say you can or can not use it. Our governments have a leash on us, they own us, from the day our parents sign our birth certificates. Thankfully, there are more and more people realising that things are NOT in check. The war against drugs is not a war against drugs, its a war against the People.


Originally posted by rshinji
Many crimes are drug-related so I am completely against its legalization!

I have heard people killing their own mothers because their mother would give them drug money. :mad:

So some of you might say "I am smoking pot but not hurting anyone." Drugs affect each individual differently. Like not everyone who drinks beer become alcoholics.

There are many who use drugs become a warfreak afterwards. He/she wouldn't hesitate to hurt anyone.

Drugs are for losers.

[bigperm]

This is they way it always is. People who are around it, and know about drugs, and not just what they learned in DARE are uusally educated about it, and want it legalized because it would be simpler that way.

People who know nothing but the propaganda that is sent out about drugs, and assume that all drugs are crack, and doing them makes you crazy and killing your mother and stuff, they all of course don't want it legal, becaue they have serious misconceptions about drugs.

My problem is that people do drugs. I do not do drugs, and I think doing drugs is bad. I make informed descisions about what I put into my body... which is different than just 'doing drugs'.

As far as legaization... I have seen some ----ed up ---- when it comes to drugs... I have seen people running throught the woods, tripping balls, I have seen people degrade themselves and their bodies for crack/coke. If they are legalized, a big step must be taken to educate about them.

Right now, just saying that all drugs are bad is not education. People need to know chemical interactions, safe use tips, doses and ways to check for the validity of a drug.

[lucifer]

fear of the unknown...

and a belief that if it's not legal it won't happen

bit like these countries with no gay people in them

[Toefur]

Ok, basically I pretty much agree with everything Todd says; but i'm still going to reply to evilhaze's crap.

All your statements are wrong and for one.

No, they are all correct.

I can state the following fact: almost (if not completely) 100% of marijuana smokers do not smoke it because its got more protein than soy beans, they dont smoke it because its environmentally friendly, and cannibis isnt illegal THESE DAYS because 'colored' people used to smoke it... PEOPLE SMOKE IT, BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET HIGH... therefor, claiming that Cannabis seeds are full of hearty and wholesome protein is not an issue when discussing the legalisation of a substance that most (if not all) users are going to smoke to get high on.

As far as not including god, if you are a cristian like i was, and do your research in the bible, you will find that Marijuana or Cannabis has had a lot of usages. If your not cristian I do some research on your religion and you WILL be surprised.

No, no, no. You missed the point. The bible has nothing to do with it. Our society is not governed by the "Christian" "Bible", laws should not be based upon what it says in there.

I don't give a ---- how many uses the bible claims cannabis has; it is completely irrelevant.

And no, you cannot do research on my religion to surprise me on how it supports marijuana, because i have NO religion.

Now, just for Jason who thought such a thing wouldn't contain any chemicals: Marijuana contains more than 400 chemicals, so there ya go.

cannabis psychosis only happens if you have a pre-existing mental disorder. Sometimes people do not realise that they have a mental disorder and then figure that cannabis caused it.

Not necessarily true.

However, do you know how many people have mental disorders, in the modern western world? Lots. It is a growing and growing problem; and marijuana is not going to help that problem... especially when the majority of people do not know they have a pre-existing mental disorder.

If it were legal, laws would be in place to protect people under the age of legal consent, which would mean less teens and children using drugs.[b]

Thats bull----, and you know it.
[b] All around the world Drug laws are being relaxed.

Doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do. For example, lets say 200 years ago every single country was toughening up on drug laws, one could then come along and say, "It's the right thing to do (toughening drug laws) because every one is doing it!"

Belgium for one has just legalized Cannabis. Go have take a trip to one of the most beautiful cities in the world Amsterdam, or better yet Harlem ( excuse my spelling).

Yes! Take a trip there... it's lovely and beautiful. Is it beautiful because they have cannibis legalised? No, that's got nothing to do with it (as many of your statements do); so what is mentioning it in aid of?


Hell, even George Washington Used and grew pot. Not only for its high but for its many other uses.

Again, SO WHAT?! I don't care if George Washington used it. Wow! He even grew it! Good on ignorant old george! WAIT! George Dubya Bush used to like the occasion sniff of coke! IT MUST BE GOOD, RIGHT?!

If you look at the history of the United States you will find that it was used EXTENSIVLY over the ages.

We could then go on to say, "If you look at the history of the united States you will find that SLAVERY was used EXTENSIVELY over the ages".

I agree. It was right back then, IT MUST BE RIGHT NOW!

Im not trying to say that every drug should be legal. No, but if its natural, like Cannabis, Mushrooms, Payote ( which is legal in Canada ),

[b]Then man should have no right to say you can or can not use it.

That's all well and good... but like I keep saying, if everyone could be trusted to do their drugs on their own property and not interfere with other people; maybe it would be like that... but no, people are just not responsible enough for that (as has been proven with alcohol and tobacco).

[bigperm]

Toufer... that was a well thought out, rational responce to an arguement. It was thoughtful, and very true for the most part.

I had more... but I lost it... my short term memory has been obliterated.

[Todd]

Agreed, that's how a debate is supposed to be handled.

Here are many more reasons why I would be in favor of legalizing it in controlled environments:
http://www.dea.gov/agency/10.htm

Look at all these innocent people that have died because they were trying to stop it's use. They had a worthy cause but this doesn't list all the police officers injured or killed for such issues as well. All of those people were just doing their job and they died because of these drug wars.

If it was legalized in controlled environments and the government ran it to put these dealers and gangs out of business then we wouldn't have to deal with so much of this. People being killed under cover, doing routine checks, performing search warrants, etc... They are doing it for our protection but they are fighting a battle that can't be won.

The government could put the real violent people out of business and we wouldn't have to deal with this. The key lies in punishing those who would be under the influence of a narcotic in public, those that would drive under the influence, and those that are simply being a nuisance to society. We have law enforcement agencies in place for this and the money we would save (and make) from legalizing it and selling it would be more then enough to help increase funding to stop public nuisances.

Bottom line from my viewpoint is that I don't care what others do to themselves as long as its in the privacy of their own home and it doesn't hurt other innocent people. Punish those that break the law and make the punishments stricter. Those that can handle themselves in the privacy of their own home can do as they please.

Before you reply Giancarlo just let me say that I can appreciate your viewpoint and if we could eliminate drugs completely we would be better off. It's a battle that can't be won right now and rather then spend all this money trying to stop the drugs from coming in your better off controlling those who do use it. I think that's the basic issue we disagree on and won't try and change your mind but I want you to at least listen to both sides of the debate. You of course also have the choice to completely ignore any valid points made. :)

[Giancarlo]

I don't sympathize for someone who wants to make drugs legal in this nation, not only is that pathetic it is stupid as more Americans could afford. What we need to do is Declare Full and Active War by calling up our reserves and killing off Drug Traffikers and taking over Colombian Rebels who control about 88% of the world's drugs with the help from the Colombian Armed Forces.

[Todd]

I don't sympathize for someone who wants to make drugs legal in this nation
So hearing both sides of an issue is sympathy and you would rather make one choice and just run with it? I won't even start attacking this viewpoint as everyone who reads it can do it themselves.

Let's play this game, you take another XX billion and manage to shut down all drugs coming in from Columbia. Then when more drugs are grown domestically what do you do? When they continue to buy $400,000 homes in nice neighborhoods and blend in what will you do? They'll always find a way to produce the drug thinking otherwise is overlooking the obvious. For someone that's a fan of the supply and demand type system you should realize this. You won't be able to stop the drugs from being made and even if you do shut down a majority of the supply all it will do is cause the prices to go up which leads to more violence and desperation for the people that need their fix for their addiction.

I share a common goal with you and that’s to protect the innocent citizens of the USA but I think you are overlooking the most basic points.

[Giancarlo]

When drugs are grown domestically, I think a state-of-emergency should be declared for hotspots and we should send bombers to bomb the crap out of the places growing pot and other illicit drugs. Drugs should remain illicit and will always remain illicit, because the majority of Americans want to keep them illegal and harder to obtain.

more violence and desperation for the people that need their fix for their addiction.

Those who take drugs are the weak, only the strong survive in society, those who do not take illicit drugs.

And no I am not over looking anything, if you have any problems with my hardliner stance in declaring active war then fine.

[Todd]

Bomb them? LOL... What if there are innocent people around the blast zone? Wouldn't a search warrant suffice?

Even drug users have rights as citizens. All human citizens have equal protection for their basic rights and I'm pretty sure bombing them violates their rights. :D The right to due process sounds familiar if we’re going to get rid of that we might as well get rid of the right to bear arms and the 4th amendment that stops unwarranted (and illegal) searches and seizures..

If you went to the people with that stance you wouldn't have many supporters in my opinion. You wouldn't even have the support of most religious communities who want to stop drug use as well.

Let's look at each viewpoint again; we can either:

A. Bomb the crap out of people we think do drugs. Most likely killing innocent people and people with no criminal pasts. Essentially declaring war, which is sure to escalate to higher violence and high casualties between authority figures and drug users.

B. Legalize it and save all the money we currently spend to fight a loosing and never ending war and regulate it severely. There are no casualties of a war that doesn't have to happen and we manage to reduce the power gangs have while putting the drug dealers out of business thereby reducing the violence.

Which point did I mess up on if any? I don't know how anyone can seriously have the solution of bombing them.

[Giancarlo]

B. Legalize it and save all the money we currently spend to fight a loosing and never ending war and regulate it severely. There are no casualties of a war that doesn't have to happen and we manage to reduce the power gangs have while putting the drug dealers out of business thereby reducing the violence.

So people can get it easier? No matter how damn hard we try to regulate it will go out of control. We are NOT loosing the war, so get that out of your head. The Drug-Dealers are loseing, we arrested drug traffiking rings. In Argentina the war is being won, the Border Patrol armed with AK-47s and SAW Machine Guns are seizing 85-90% of the Drugs that are being attempted to be brought into Argentina... that is what I call success. The war will continue since most Americans agree that it should, a winning war because we build the Helicopters, Rifles, Tanks, Combat Aircraft, and COIN Aircraft. We should build hundreds and hundreds of COIN Aircraft and destroy all the Illicit Drug Fields we can.

[Todd]

Your speaking about other issues then I am. I'm talking about domestically with our people. There will always be a supply even if we take out the supply from other countries then we'll have to deal with people growing it domestically.

Do you realize how much this war is going to cost and how many lives it will take? We would be so much better off if we just regulated it severely.

Unless you can cut off the demand for the drugs you will not stop the production of drugs. Supply and demand, it applies to so many different areas.

We're loosing the war from the standpoint that we aren't making progress with cutting off the demand through education. Until the demand is eliminate the supply will always be there in some way.

[Giancarlo]

Most of the Drug Dealers end up dead in Argentina because they are out gunned five to one. That needs to start happening in the United States. And not many Border Patrol or Policemen die in Argentina from Drug Related Incidents. We should build COIN Aircraft for Colombia, Peru, Bolivia and Paraguay and simply let those Governments eliminate drugs like they have been doing. In Bolivia, Peru and Ecuador drug production has been reduced 96% of 1980 Amounts, that is what I call progress!

[jw]

Heh, demand is a problem. I'd say about 75% of my school smokes pot ( I don't, I've seen the effects). Marijuana is like really strong and very addictive alcohol in it's effects. What would our soceity be like if everyone was doing drugs? There would be nothing ever done and the crime rate would go through the roof. People's ability to weigh the consequences of their actions is inhibited greatly by drugs.

[Giancarlo]

15 Million Americans have abused Drugs/Alcohol according to the lastest stats.

That is hardly a majority and lets keep it that way.

[Todd]

You are overlooking the basic concept of supply and demand. The USA will have increased violence from people that need their fix if they can't get it and the casual drug dealer will dig even deeper in their pockets to pay for it which will only give the dealers and high ups more money to fight back and relocate with.

Those issues aren't domestic to the US. Cut production off in one location and another one will soon pop up in a new location. As long as they have a market for drugs they'll continue to sell them and produce them and your plan completely ignores the market.

Even with 100% education of all the people they will decide for themselves if they want to do drugs or not. Many people will say yes and you won't be able to stop them.

I don't see the point of loosing more good citizens to a pointless war. With my plan these people would be put out of business as they couldn't even begin to compete with prices from the US government as they don't have to mark it up each time they want to make a sell, they don't have to put toxic chemicals in to drugs to make it appear like a bigger sale, they don't have to give everyone a cut who helps it reach its destination.

The USA could put them out of business by beating them at their own game and then we could regulate it like we do with alcohol. What’s next are you going to suggest that we fire off a few missiles at breweries?

[Giancarlo]

I am tired of arguing with someone who thinks anybody who think anybody that has different beliefs is completely wrong and stupid.

WE CANNOT LEGALIZE ANY KIND OF CURRENTLY ILLICIT DRUG OR IT WILL CAUSE PROLBEMS!

[Todd]

Originally posted by jw
What would our soceity be like if everyone was doing drugs? There would be nothing ever done and the crime rate would go through the roof. People's ability to weigh the consequences of their actions is inhibited greatly by drugs.
Agreed that it would not be for the better of society. You made a choice like many others did including myself, and that was to avoid drugs completely. An educated choice was made and many other people (a majority) would make the same choice. Legalizing it would not force people to do it and in fact I think that once the warning labels were attached most people would read that and decide that it's simply not worth it.

My entire point is that it's a war that will never end. Even if the supply is reduced and the demand stays the same all that will happen is that the prices will go up and as I've already said that will resort to more violence.

If the government played their cards correctly they could make a LOT of money instead of loosing money to a pointless war. That money could be used to educate the people or it could be used to pay off the national debt.

I don't know how many times I'll say it but you can't police stupidity. Some people will always do drugs even after they know what it will do to them. Don't believe me? Look at smoking and how many people smoke even though they know what it will do to them.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
I am tired of arguing with someone who thinks anybody who think anybody that has different beliefs is completely wrong and stupid.

WE CANNOT LEGALIZE ANY KIND OF CURRENTLY ILLICIT DRUG OR IT WILL CAUSE PROLBEMS!
So you dislike debating is what you are saying? If that's the case you should choose another future profession because you will have a 100% unity when dealing with such large numbers.

I agree that it will cause problems and that’s why we have to regulate it and enforce laws like alcohol. Building cars also caused problems where people drove to fast, drove drunk, were bad drivers, etc.. Just because some people can't handle themselves doesn't mean that it's not possible. Laws are in place to protect society and this would be no different.

If you can't take the heat get out of the fire. Otherwise debate the issues brought up. :) I'm always willing to debate a topic and some people will agree with my viewpoints, others will agree with yours, and others will think we're both crazy for typing so much. :)

My only point is that you shouldn't start an issue if you aren't willing to finish it. I know where you stand you know where I stand. We can agree to disagree but that doesn't mean that issues shouldn't be addressed. You are under no obligation to post your replies, someone else can post their views or we can let the thread disappear on page 10.

[jason]

Giancarlo doesn't even know what hes talking about. his solution is just kill, kill, kill. Have you ever heard of human compassion? ppl don't shoot heroin and sell their bodies to pay for it and live on the street because its a jolly good time. They have problems, in order to address the addiction you must address the problems. These ppl are the ones that buy over 10 tons of drugs per year and keep the druglords in business.

I don't believe in legalization, possibly legalization of marijuana but first decriminalize it so at least these ppl don't have to go to prison or get a record for possesing harmless marijuana.

The hard drugs should remain illegal, these drugs are highly addictive and destructive. If you end the demand for drugs, the business of drugs will just disappear. Its not that simple but i think is a far better and peacefull solution than mounds of dead bodies.

I've associated with ppl who do drugs for over 9 years. A few went over the deep end into hard drugs but 95% just smoke marijuana and live a normal life. They don't commit crimes or kill their parents. If Giancarlo is the future of politics we are all doomed.

[lucifer]

if we all go round killing people for doing things we don't like we will end up with a very small population.

also what about all those prescription drugs that people are addicted to or worse illicitly abusing (pain killers/tranquilizers etc)
should we be targeting the drug companies too (a few cruise missiles would sort them out I'm sure)

this is a world issue not just a US one. countries cannot work in isolation.

while there is demand there will be drugs.

I believe in the model of drug addiction that says - people use drugs to cover up other deep rooted problems that they have.

If more effort was put into helping people with these or preventing them in the first place that would be better use of resources. (problems often include childhood abuse (physical/sexual/emotional) mental health issues, and interestingly for gc, the effects of warfare (seeing your mates blown up can be quite disturbing)) children often learn addictive behaviour of their parents (things repeat over the generations)

it is important to realise that taking drugs does not inevitably lead to addiction/criminal behaviour.

[bigperm]

Those who take drugs are the weak, only the strong survive in society, those who do not take illicit drugs. Thank you Hitler...

[jw]

I'd say thats more of a Darwinistic comment

[bigperm]

Darwin said that only the strong survive... and that it takes care of itself. Hitler... like Giancarlo wants to go ahead and kill off the 'weak'. I forgot to quote that in my post.

[keith]

didn't hitler commit suicide?

thought so... guess he was one of the weaklings.

[bigperm]

I think he did commit suicide, but I think that Giancarlo said that he is alive and living somewhere...

In my book of lists, it says that he died a virgin too.

[meow]

Originally posted by bigperm
Darwin said that only the strong survive... and that it takes care of itself. Hitler... like Giancarlo wants to go ahead and kill off the 'weak'. I forgot to quote that in my post.

Sorry but a correction is needed. Darwin never wrote that. It's all due to a bad translation and has since been used by many obscure characters, among them Hitler. Darwin believed in "the survival of the fittest", not the strongest, as a key for evolution. The difference is immense, either it's applied to animals or people.

[Todd]

It's starting to get off topic and I think all the issues have been pointed out so I'm going to lock the thread. There is another thread still open that is of very similar nature in the general forum as well.