drugs a step forward

[lucifer]

Portugal has forced back the frontiers of drug liberalisation in Europe with a law which, at a stroke, decriminalises the use of all previously banned narcotics, from cannabis to crack cocaine.
The new law, which came into effect on 1 July, takes a socially conservative country with traditional Catholic values far ahead of much of northern Europe in treating drug abuse as a social and health problem rather than a criminal one.

Vitalino Canas, the drug tsar appointed by the Socialist prime minister, Antonio Guterres, to steer the law into place, said yesterday that it made more sense to change the law than ignore it, as police forces do in Holland, parts of Swizerland, and now experimentally in the Brixton area of London.

"Why not be clear about this, and change the law to recognise that consuming drugs can be an illness or the route to illness?" he said. "America has spent billions on enforcement but it has got nowhere. We view drug users as people who need help and care."

He admitted that Mr Guterres was taking a risk, but said Portugal had no real choice. The police had stopped arresting suspects and the courts were throwing out cases against users rather than apply legislation which sent them to prison for up to three years.

[Giancarlo]

For some this may be major step backwards. Luckily this will never happen to Spain.

[bigperm]

---- amsterdam... I am going on vacation to portugal now.

[bigperm]

. Luckily this will never happen to Spain.

Portugal becomes the third member of the European Union, after Spain and Italy, to decriminalise the consumption and possession of small quantities of drugs. From the BBC news article :http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_823000/823257.stm

[Stumbler]

I'm gonna roll a fat one.

[LastActionHero]

Originally posted by Stumbler
I'm gonna roll a fat one.

Remember you live in Scotland. I think it's still illegal there ;)

[Stumbler]

Remember you live in Scotland. I think it's still illegal there

So what, the police can go dance on the head of a pin, I only smoke indoors anyway.

[Giancarlo]

Then it is a major blow to all attempts to stop drug use. What a tradegy. Spain is a very conserative nation by the way... and so is Portugal, the Citizens will make you feel very unsafe going there to smoke ---- out in the street to degrade their lifestyle. By the way, SPAIN IS MY HOME COUNTRY and I do have nationalistic tendencies. Both Spain and Italy are ruled by Right-Wing Parties, and the Ruling Forza Italia Party in Italy is going to keep drugs illegal.

[jason]

you can't just light up a join in the streets, there are cafes and such desinated places for that. and i don't even think spain or portugal will have that. decriminalization doesn't mean legalization. it just means that they won't go to jail or get a criminal record for petty possesion. dealers can still get charged. i think those countries have bigger problems to deal with like forced prostitution to deal with anyways. right now, or before the parliment was let out for summer Canada was looking into the effects of decriminalizing or legalizing marijuana. they are supposed to make a desicion in the fall i think

[Giancarlo]

During the Franco Regime... if you had drugs and were caught it was death sentence. Spain has changed much, but don't think you can throw the laws around. If I was in Spain and saw any American, or anybody smoking anything out side I will be the first to call the Civil Guard and Cops.

[robin]

Actually, the UK looks like it's heading toward legalization. They've stopped targeting marijuana smugglers, and in some part or other of south London they've stopped prosecuting for possession. meanwhile things in the US are looking pretty bad. bleah. time for a vacation to portugal.

[niv]

hey robin, what's the situation in baltimore right now? is the blaze still going (i'm too lazy to turn on the radio :p)?

[Giancarlo]

Why can't this world just be cleaned of drugs. On the bright side, the Colombian FARC who control 88% of the world's drugs are being discredited.

[Haze]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Why can't this world just be cleaned of drugs. On the bright side, the Colombian FARC who control 88% of the world's drugs are being discredited.

Thats never going to happen Giancarlo. You wanting all drugs to be cleaned of the earth is the same idea as taking everyone with cancer and killing them all.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by evilhaze


Thats never going to happen Giancarlo. You wanting all drugs to be cleaned of the earth is the same idea as taking everyone with cancer and killing them all.

Sooner or later it will, Colombia's FARC is running out of time. I give them five years. Then the Government will take control of the entire country.

[robin]

Originally posted by needcgispace
hey robin, what's the situation in baltimore right now? is the blaze still going (i'm too lazy to turn on the radio :p)?

According to the baltimore sun it is... I live about half an hour away from the action though, so I have no idea what's going on. All i know is that there was a rail accident and there's a burning train in a tunnel, and something about hydrochloric acid and the Inner Harbor being quarantined. Sucks a lot.

[jason]

we've had this same discussion before but giancarlo try and be more open minded, drugs in various forms have been around since the dawn of time. while i agree some drugs ie cocaine, herion, crystal meth are truely harmful and addictive but plain old marijuana is harmless. and what about all these legal drugs we are giving to our kids? ridelin (sp?) and paxil now they have prozac for kids. in the past 10 years prescription of these drugs has jumped over 200%. surely these drugs are being over prescribed but we allow and now television commercials for these drugs are common. some say teaching these children to solve there problems with a pill almost ensures illegal drug use during youth and adulthood.

[Toefur]

Prescription drugs are evil, too. I should be on some sort, apparently, for depression and all that sort of thing, but i don't want things that screw with my brain :D :mad: :rolleyes: :p ;)

these drugs are being over prescribed

That's true, but everyone knows it. The media knows it, the doctors know it, most of the patients know it... but ours is a drug filled society, they're the answer to everything.

FYI, Marijuana is not as harmless as you say. It IS addictive. It's a mental addiction. Whilst the things in it aren't a substance that purposefully addicts you, like nicotine, it is something that people come to be addicted to.

Just talk to somebody you know that smokes it, say every single day, they usually can't stop, don't want to stop, and find the idea of going just one day with out it to be utterly ludicrous; that's signs of addiction.

Just a bit more info on it:

http://www.paperstreetmusic.com/drugabuse-marijuana.html
http://www.toefur.com/straightedge/effects/marijuana.html

:)

[Ted S]

Originally posted by Giancarlo


Sooner or later it will, Colombia's FARC is running out of time. I give them five years. Then the Government will take control of the entire country.

You seem very intent on showing everyone your political prows and productions, prehaps you'll allow me to spin the angle of a political & social scientist.....

the drug problem is composed of three large elements

1) drug dealers desire for profit over the desire for life - it is this problem which you reference to. countries like Colombia have large drug economies that produce insane amounts of drugs and accordingly have a great wealth and great corruption. never forget that as bad as drugs are, they are a major pat of many countries economies so while removing drugs is great, something else must take their place economically

2) people's desire for drugs - this is perhaps the largesy problem with drugs. looking at the basic idea of supply and demand, if you remove desire for drugs from people then drug dealers go away, drug economies fold.... without a market to sell to, there are no drugs. many liberal thinkers feel that by targeting this side of the drug problem, we can solve a great deal more then sending soldiers into drug countries, raiding drug dealers and what not

3) treatment - this problem ties in closely with #2. regions that manage to get people off drugs and have large drug awareness programs have significantly cut down on drug usage where as regions like mid-America which remain closed to the idea of drug abuse and drug treatment have seen use levels increase. this issue is what many other users have brought up

simplified conclusion - you can not attack one part of the drug problem and expect drugs to go away. i'm very pro-military but even if you destroyed Colombia’s drug crop entirely along with the crops of the 4 next largest drug producing countries, the demand for drugs would remain and while the cost would rise with the loss of supply, people would continue to find ways to make and sell drugs. furthermore, by doing little about habitual drug users, we fix nothing. few people are caught with drugs compared to the number using them. when we do catch these people society often punishes them but does little or nothing to address their problem. punishment is a fine idea but if you fail to address their addition then once that punishment ends, their addiction begins all over again.

on a final note, like Toefur and others have said, the problem with drugs, legal or not really boils down to human nature -- on one hand we desire, we have greed and dont mind killing each other to earn money and on the other hand we're so full of pride that we do very little to stop our desire for drugs as it means we have to admit we have a fault.

P.S. Anyone that tells you Marijuana/Pot/Weed/etc... is not harmful or addictive is lying to you. Marijuana has the same effect as alcohol for the most part but in a lower amount. Basically it kills brain cells and more importantly, it puts its users into a constant state of light euphoria taking them out of reality. any substance that removes you sense of reality is harmful as it affects your ability to operate as a 'normal' human within society. the more problems drug users face, the more of their drug they take and this makes it an addictive phenomenon. many, many people use Marijuana not as a means of escape but simply as a means to feel normal not because it is safe but because they have abused it so much that they no longer properly grasp what most of us consider normality

[bigperm]

Hey! A straight edger! Cool man... I tried it... but that was after a hangover and doesn't count. You guys like to listen to minor threat... being sober... I like getting really drunk and listening to Fugazi.

[robin]

I heard that Ian Mackaye smokes now. Heh.

Anyway... my favorite part of the whole war on drugs thing has to be the thing about marijuana turning people into violent heroin addicts. Whatever. Used responsibly, marijuana does just as much harm as legal drugs like alcohol... if not less. The problem is that many people don't use it responsibly.

[Ted S]

Originally posted by robin
I heard that Ian Mackaye smokes now. Heh.

Anyway... my favorite part of the whole war on drugs thing has to be the thing about marijuana turning people into violent heroin addicts. Whatever. Used responsibly, marijuana does just as much harm as legal drugs like alcohol... if not less. The problem is that many people don't use it responsibly.

When used responsbiliy.... marijuana is not used responsible, marijuana takes away your sense of reality in a manner of minutes... it lets you find a new world, it is escapism.... most rela drug users use drugs to escape problems in life and will not stop. After time marijuana looses its potency and drugs like crack, herion, etc.... become viable options to restore that feeling...

obviously some pole can use marijuana with little or no habitual problems but every user is affected and every user runs a very high risk of staying that way.

[robin]

Just because it is mind-altering doesn't mean it cannot be used responsibly.

http://www.norml.org/about/responsible.shtml

Damn. Look at me all up on my pot-smoking high horse. Yeah, it's bad for you and if you smoke it you run the risk of being a smelly hippie who follows Phish around in a VW bus all the time, and that kind of sucks, never mind the lung problems and the total loss of short-term memory. Cigarette smoking will put you in an iron lung or a casket, alcohol will destroy your liver or make you drive your car into a telephone pole... chocolate will eventually give you heart problems and make you fat. The list goes on.

Also, I don't think drugs are always necessarily used as an escape from reality. This is certainly a component for some people, but it really depends on the circumstances, the person, and what drug it is. And it's 8AM and I haven't gone to sleep yet, so I think I'm going to go do that before I write like a 73-page annotated research paper. Sorry if I sound belligerent... it's the insomnia. :)

[Giancarlo]

Ted can you condense that... by the time I am finished reading it I will have gray hair.

This is a point I fail to make:

Marijuana has the same effect as alcohol for the most part but in a lower amount. Basically it kills brain cells and more importantly, it puts its users into a constant state of light euphoria taking them out of reality.

That is why we need to eliminate the FARC, they produce 88% of it. The Prices will go high enough, to 80% of what it is now, and then the demand will go down... but if the prices do not go high enough below the 80% increase then the demand will actually increase.

[Toefur]

Well said Ted, wonderful!

I also agree with Ted that marijuana is not used responsibly. I'm quite certain the majority, if not all, of people that do smoke it don't even the INTENTION of using it responsibily. Like I found on some pro-marijuana site before, "WE SMOKE POT TO GET STONED!". Yup. Gotta love the maturity.

Yeah, Escapism sounds right. I know a lotta people that smoke it, and regardless of what they say; I can see that for all of them it all boils down to just outright escapism.

Bigperm: Fugazi bloody rock! :)

[jason]

then why not ban alcohol? i've seen ppl become violent, beat ppl, assult women drunk on alcohol but have never seen someone like that after smoking a few joints. i smoke pot to relax and yes escape to a certain extent but any activity like that is about escapism even television is a form of escapism. some ppl can't handle it but unless you've tried it you can't really talk. But i agree with just about everything ted has said. one big difference between pot and the hard drugs is you won't find ppl willing to mug or kill ppl for money for pot. is physical addiction isn't there and the mental addiction isn't big enough to start sucking ---- for a few joints.

[Giancarlo]

Why we shouldn't ban alcohol: The Prohibiton

It cannot be done, because the demand for alcohol is 4000X Greater than for any other substance like pot.

[Ted S]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Ted can you condense that... by the time I am finished reading it I will have gray hair.

This is a point I fail to make:

Marijuana has the same effect as alcohol for the most part but in a lower amount. Basically it kills brain cells and more importantly, it puts its users into a constant state of light euphoria taking them out of reality.

That is why we need to eliminate the FARC, they produce 88% of it. The Prices will go high enough, to 80% of what it is now, and then the demand will go down... but if the prices do not go high enough below the 80% increase then the demand will actually increase.

Giancarlo - What I said has already been condensed greatly.... I posted about a page and a half of text, if you plan to study politics which you certainly seem to want to do, 1½ pages of text will be the shortest article yor ever read. Politcis is not as simple as a three sentance thought nor is the drug problem, removing the current producer of drugs will do almost NOTHING to reduce the drug problem as someone else will simply take over nad we can't go around destroying every country until none are left.

[Giancarlo]

Colombia produces 9/10 out of the world's supply of drugs. I am not going to become a politican, I am going into a Government Agency like the DOD or CIA.

[Ted S]

If Colombia produced 100% of the world's drug supply it wouldn't matter. Stopping the supplier is only a very short term solution to fixing problem. So long as people demand drugs and iwll pay for drugs, new suppliers will be created and the drug problem will continue. Stop Coombia and you cut down on quantity, icnrease prices but in a few years somoen else will take its place.

As for your future, you're 17, chances are you'll change your mind but if not good luck. I'm not sure what the CIA's policy is on foreigners but i fyou make it I'm sure writting up reports will be just thrilling.

[Giancarlo]

Alright enough of the drug war and globalization. I am always attacked in both whenever I talk about it. It is like my opinion is bitterly hated here.

My Dad was born in the US, but is Italian. I was born in Spain though. He was in the DOD. I am looking more towards the DOD, hey if it is a desk job fine, it is supposed to be good-paying.

[Ted S]

your ideas are attacked becuase your ideas are not open to any enw thought, because they fail to take in more than one angle. No one is perfect, no one sees all the angles but you can nto simply see one... you must as lteast acknowladge and address others.

As for a job at the CIA, DOD or similar, if you don't mind writting all day that's great but the pay isn't anything special nor are the perks. Government jobs are somehting people take to have an impact on the society they live in. Prehaps you get out of few speeding tickets but you won't own a mansion or change the world, thats not the point.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ted Sindzinski
your ideas are attacked becuase your ideas are not open to any enw thought, because they fail to take in more than one angle. No one is perfect, no one sees all the angles but you can nto simply see one... you must as lteast acknowladge and address others.


Now you are attacking my ideas... and saying they are not open to other ideas? Well you are incorrect, they are and I take other beliefs into consideration. You fail to notice that.

[Ted S]

Re-read the threat... it's very intresitng how half the people are taling about the effects of drugs, the problems with drug users and the last post you make about the issue is still on how colombia is the problem ;)

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Ted Sindzinski
Re-read the threat... it's very intresitng how half the people are taling about the effects of drugs, the problems with drug users and the last post you make about the issue is still on how colombia is the problem ;)

ALRIGHT THIS IS ENOUGH! I AM OUT OF THIS! MY ATTITUDE JUST WHEN ONTO THE NEXT LEVEL OF IMPACIENCE. There are people like me and who think like me, however my beliefs are not closed off unlike your's, now leave me alone.

[NC_TOM]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
Why we shouldn't ban alcohol: The Prohibiton

It cannot be done, because the demand for alcohol is 4000X Greater than for any other substance like pot.

Reality check: I know almost as many pot smokers as I do alcoholics. And no it's not the crowd I hang with or anything like that.. I'm talking about the overall spectrum of people I know.. see even a VERY close family member of mine smokes pot regularly but hasn't had a drink in 25 years. Pot is everywhere, and if we had Marijuana stores, they would have almost as much business as the downtown liquor store.

[bigperm]

This is kinda funny... Number one... I have never smoked pot from Columbia... And I have smoked a lot of different pot. They are not a big supplier of pot.

People are talking about how alchohol can't be made illegal. Here is a true story:

One of my best friends in high school used to tell me everyday how much he hated his dad. He would tell me about all the crap that his dad pulled. I was with him just yesterday, and he started telling me how cool his dad is. I asked him why he is cool now, but was hated just last year. He put it very simply. "My dad was a mean drunk... he used to drink all the time too. Now he hasn't had a sip in 6 months. He just smokes pot, and is cool as hell."

That's right... pot bringing families together.

[NC_TOM]

well.. hope this won't hurt my reputation here

almost EXACT same thing worked for me and that other family member, we didn't talk for a year, we just got back together 2 weeks ago, and now things are great, and pot had quite a bit to do with things improving!

[LastActionHero]

Drugs having a positive impact?

Oh well you get to see new things everyday!

And NC_TOM it doesn't hurt your reputation.

[NC_TOM]

I've just tried to keep pretty quiet on these debates because I don't want to end up saying something that might make me look bad. Not like I have things to hide anyway, but I wouldn't want people avoiding my services based on what I have to say in the forum.

[Toefur]

That's not a positive effect of marijuana. That's idiocy and utter lameness, it seems. "My dad smokes pot, so he's cool" ???

Sorry, but uhhh...

[meow]

I triple that: Uhhh, uhhh, uhhh!
LOL! Reading these drug threads is like listening to a fictive discussion between medieval inquisitors and a gang of pot smoking hippies from the 60's. Peace, far out. :rolleyes:

[bigperm]

I guess you don't get it. I can't believe I have to spell it out. The guy drank a lot. His kids hated him. He stopped drinking with the help of pot, and now smokes pot. He is cool because he doesn't beat his kids and wife up anymore.

Damn... some people are SO thick.

[Giancarlo]

Then Bigperm you probably are smoking the stuff from Burma or Mexico. They are two other countries we need to go after to clean up their acts. But Burma has a death sentence if you are caught with disturbuting the stuff... usually a shot in the back of the head. The Chinese do have a minor problem, but you also get executed if you are caught with any kind of illegal drug.

I completely understand that maybe we should control the demand instead of placing laws against it, but we should go after the producers too.

[jason]

most of the bud here in canada is locally grown, bc has the best stuff. the ---- stuff comes from mexico i think. we call it compressed. it sucks.

i think drugs have done good things for us, if you don't think so take all your albums and burn them because all those artists who's music enhanced your lives over the years.....rrreeeeaaalll fu*king high on drugs -Bill Hicks - a comic legend

bottom line until ppl start realizing drug addiction is a sickness not a crime things will continue on the downward spiral.

[meow]

Sure it is a sickness. But how can you call a sickness good?

[Gayowulf]

Giancarlo- you mentioned controling sources- it is rumored that the US is going to put an american drug police office in vancouver.

[lucifer]

I just think it's really interesting the way they have decriminalized all drugs not just cannabis (which most people would agree is not a huge problem when compared to crack which is a very nasty drug).

It is just a shame that the portuguese economy will not be able to provide as much support for people wishing to receive help around addiction as could be hope for. I am glad that they have realized that locking up drug users does not solve the problem. I hope that their experiment is a success and shows the world whether this approach can work. It would be a shame if all the crack/smack heads in europe head down to the algarve and cause problems but we'll see.

[Giancarlo]

Gayowulf, that is a good idea.

As long as we go after the sources then everything will be under control. Canada and the US itself produce a miniscule amount of drugs compared to Burma, Mexico and Colombia. Burma is a military junta, Mexico has Fox who is going to crack down and destroy drugs, and Colombia has Pastrana, who is throwing the FARC on its knees. This world is all set to eliminate the suppliers. Nicaragua might have the Sandinistas coming back, and disgraced Marxist Ortega has declared if he does win he will cooperate with the US.

[NC_TOM]

Well, I really wouldn't say that Mexican dirt-weed is a best seller here in the US. Nobody wants that stuff, like I think Jason said, people want the stronger stuff from BC. I have a hard time believing that Mexico produces more pot than the USA does. If Mexico actually does, then it is going to countries outside the USA.

[Giancarlo]

Burma I think produces the stuff that is the highest quality, but there are photographs of Firing Squads killing many who try to grow it there. Not that I agree with the Junta, it is a quick way to stop illegal acts. In Argentina nearly 1,000 Tons of it was seized in one raid, when the Border Patrol shot dead six people and several more in a sting. The Border Patrol hasn't changed much since the collapse of the Junta, so it is equipped with Armored Vehicles, Machine Guns, and Grenades. I should say this: Either you legalize or decriminalize the drugs, or you follow the junta-way. There is no grey area in this issue, either you become so bloody strict with the laws or you decrimialize. Both work. Classic Examples are Peru and Bolivia.

[niv]

ahem..burma? :mad:

all of the citizens of burma are afraid of the government, why would they do such a thing?

[Giancarlo]

It was grown by a Guerrilla Group that exists in small remnants in the Thai/Burmese Border. The Burman Army wiped them out... but people still do attempt to grow it. The Thai Army is well-armed and well-trained for jungle conditions to incinerate drug production.... to bad the US Army doesn't do well in the Jungle.

[niv]

well, perhaps it would be a good idea to put Myanmar's government out of power (it is a military state), and then establish a republic based on fairness and moral. like what macarthur did with japan.

[Giancarlo]

The name of the country was changed to Myanmar in the 90s so you are right about the name. I don't think it should be put out of power, for one reason there are no drugs being produced. The Government is also doing a good job helping the production of Diamonds, and other legiminate natural resources profit. Something the previous Government never did.

[niv]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
The name of the country was changed to Myanmar in the 90s so you are right about the name. I don't think it should be put out of power, for one reason there are no drugs being produced. The Government is also doing a good job helping the production of Diamonds, and other legiminate natural resources profit. Something the previous Government never did.

are you talking about british rule? the government that has taken over in Myanmar is corrupt. have you heard of Aung San Suu Kyi? you may or may not have seen her on Dateline on NBC. you may not know how things turned out after the military took over, but my parents have a first hand experience, and so i have my reasons to say that the military-based government should be put out of power

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by needcgispace


are you talking about british rule? the government that has taken over in Myanmar is corrupt. have you heard of Aung San Suu Kyi? you may or may not have seen her on Dateline on NBC. you may not know how things turned out after the military took over, but my parents have a first hand experience, and so i have my reasons to say that the military-based government should be put out of power

You ever been to Ecuador? I have. The Government was overthrowned three times when I was there, and a Military Junta was instated. Do you think that you can possibly imagine the effects of what happened afterwards? DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA? I thought you didn't because you live in the US.

I do not support the tactics of the Military Junta in Myanmar, but it does prevent drugs from being produced. However do not support General Than Shwe, because his ways are undemocratic...

[niv]

oh joy..he's yelling at me again :rolleyes:

[Giancarlo]

No I am not.

[lucifer]

more and more cannabis is being grown under artificial conditions especial all the skunk and superskunk varieties. I see this trend continuing especially if there are problems in producer countries. This just ends up putting the poor farmers out of work. It also means that killing off the production in these countries is unlikely to have a major effect on the 'developed' world

[niv]

Originally posted by Giancarlo

... DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA? ...

what do you call this? i wouldn't really call it emphasis.

[bigperm]

I think that the mexican dirt weed here in America is grown here, but nobody want to claim it, so they say it's mexican dirt. There are a lot of nugs grown here too.

I'd have to say that most of the pot in America is grown domestically.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by lucifer
more and more cannabis is being grown under artificial conditions especial all the skunk and superskunk varieties. I see this trend continuing especially if there are problems in producer countries. This just ends up putting the poor farmers out of work. It also means that killing off the production in these countries is unlikely to have a major effect on the 'developed' world

Lucifer do you have any knowledge about alternative agiculture that has been a major program in Bolivia? The Government has successfully given the people some legiminate alternative that could make a profit. NO, I guess none of you ever heard of it, because you want to make stupid things like that legal. If we give the farmers aide, like the Bolivian Government is doing, then they could plant legiminate crops. They are going to start trying this in Colombia. It ends up being more profitable because these items are agicultural, and they could be exported to the US legiminately.