When are the Western countries going to pay?

**syd** · August 14th, 2002, 01:48

Originally posted by bigperm
We even have several TV shows dedicated to it. Judge Judy, Judge Mills Lane, Judge Joe Brown, Texas Justice, The People's Court... ETC

Make it stop.

I watched Texas Justice today

**Moonman** · August 14th, 2002, 02:07

Originally posted by syd
That's one thing about America I hate: Everyone sues for stupidest crap.

It isn't only in America, it happens over here all the time, our public liability insurance premiums have gone through the roof, local carnivals and shows have been cancelled, because they can't afford the insurance costs.

Like a while ago, a person sued his local council, because he dived into the ocean, at low tide, and broke his neck. He won, as the court found the council responsible, as they did not have signs warning of the danger that diving at low tide can cause. And they guy that dived was 22 YEARS OLD, like seriously, even a 12 year old knows the dangers of diving at low tide.

But i have heard the people suing McDonalds and other fast food chains, because they made them fat. That has got to be one of the stupidest things i have ever heard.

Anyways i have to go and sue Cadbury because they didn't warn me that chocolate can harm my teath. While i'm gone I might sue Coca-Cola as well, for the same reasons. Anyone wanna join in, we could make a Class Action

.

Stupid People, do stupid things, and they like to shift the blame to anyone other than themselves, especially if they can make some money out of it.

**Blank Verse** · August 14th, 2002, 02:29

How' bout that one guy who sued a family after he attempted to break into their home but tripped on the couch and broke his leg?

Anyway, back to the point. I'm not so sure why all of a sudden you feel the USA needs to pay reparations for all the testing done in the Bikini atoll, etc, etc, , and why they need to pay it now...I think Webdude hit the nail on the head. Why should everyone be held accountable for something they weren't a part of? Dubya didn't order all that nuclear testing, he didn't drop the bombs over Japan, was not at all responsible for the Cuban Missile Crisis, etc, etc...but you want him to pay for it?

**bigperm** · August 14th, 2002, 02:35

This reminds me of the Chris Rock Show episode where he went around asking white people to pay for slave reparations. Some people gave him a dollar. Thank you stupid white people, you made all the difference.

**conkermaniac** · August 14th, 2002, 05:04

Originally posted by Webdude

And what about our POW's there? They were treated far more cruel than prisoners we took. They would strap a man down and dow things such as hammer rusted nails under the fingernails, drill though the man's knees, etc, etc.

That's true, but you hear that documented so much more often than the civil rights abuses that America themselves committed. Anyway, according to one famous top officer, some of the the top US military officials that supported these atrocities actually ended up being highly decorated. It's the truth that's never discovered.

And you can't forget...the Vietnamese commited atrocities against POW's. Meanwhile, the US was committing atrocities against the common innocent everyday citizen. There is a huge difference.

The human abuses in Vietnam was not my original topic, nor do I intend it to be. So let's get off this subject.

How about the worst atrocities of all time? Hitler and Germany. They didnt simply kill either. They tortured for fun. They would take a pregnant woman about to give birth, and strap her legs together and watch her die. Or how about the tall pointed and oiled poles they would sit prisoners on and spectate as the person could no longer hold themselves as they slid down the pole and it finally kill them as the pole come out their mouths.

I know Hitler and the Nazis committed far worse human rights abuses. I never said that they didn't. And I was talking about post World War II and pre-Nixon times anyway, so this wouldn't apply at all.

I am not responsible for what my ancestors did to another person's ancestors. Grow up and get over it. Get a job and quit expecting me to give you money for something which I was not responsible for.

Well, considering the people of Bikini still can't get back to their original homes, the US still needs to pay its $250 million dollars for clearing out the radiation in the area, as well as for all the suffering (after being out of their land for more than half a century) in addition to investigation into how vegetation can be redeveloped. And what about the phosphate deposits? None of the examples I gave required YOU to pay money directly to other people. It required the government to pay money to the governments of other countries. None of the examples I gave were too long ago, and the governments need to pay money to make up for its wrongdoings in the past. The government is always directly responsible for its own actions in the past. If we allow this issue to continue longer and longer, the worse the situation will get.

And don't even try to tell me that if your grandfather got wealthy by stealing phosphate from Nauru, it wouldn't affect your life in any way.

**Todd** · August 14th, 2002, 16:08

Originally posted by conkermaniac
None of the examples I gave required YOU to pay money directly to other people. It required the government to pay money to the governments of other countries.

I just wanted to address one thing... Whenever you ask a government to pay for ANYTHING it will in the end come from us, it's citizens. The USA is by far one of the most giving countries around and in the end that means we pay higher taxes. The citizens for the most part are fine with this, as we want to help others in less fortunate places.

So as Epgs said, don't complain that we don't give our fair share. What if after $200 million their research didn't help the situation and they were still off. Should we then give $500 million, $1 billion, more? Where do you draw the line?

Every country has a dark spot on their past here or there. I don't know the facts on some of those cases but ask yourself why any action was done. Generally you'll find the answer is for the good of the world. Compare it to the Afghanistan issue, before we attacked the Taliban, many people were criticizing the USA for getting involved with another countries government. Some people had incredibly strong opinions that we shouldn't be there. Then after the Taliban is more or less removed from the country the oppression has more or less stopped. Go ahead and do some searching on the topic: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/6185.htm

What's my point? The point is that our actions may be opposed but they are done for the good of that country / the world. Can you say the same for the dark spots in other countries history? I'll leave that up to you but remember to view the issues with some perspective. We're not always right, but we're not always wrong either. If you feel that strongly on an issue do something about it. Go raise money for them, door to door, marathons, donate money from your paycheck, contact your government to see if they are willing to help, etc.

Until I see that I usually take someone’s opinion as a gripe and nothing else. The same as those who complain about a corrupt government and yet don't vote..

I'll end my rant with that.

**Blank Verse** · August 14th, 2002, 16:13

Yes. That's what I meant to say

Well said, Todd.

**invisionz** · August 14th, 2002, 16:16

ahh - judge judy please dont remind me, she really gets on my nerves ;(

jw · August 14th, 2002, 18:01

Without the US, China would be an even poorer nation. 21% of China's exports go to the US, which totals around $48.72 billion. The citizens don't see any of that money, it goes to line the pockets of the men in power in China. Before you start criticizing the policies of the US, look toward your own country, though you would be put in jail due to the heavily monitored media and closely censored society, so I guess I don't blame you in a way. You're just trying to get on their good list to further your life much as anyone with any sense (including sleezy politicians) do.

**Archbob** · August 14th, 2002, 18:03

Now, the western countries do need to pay the oceanic debts.

But as for Vietnam and Korea. We were in a guerilla warfare. You can't tell who was a villager and who was Viet-cong, innocent looking kids were armed during that conflict, so it became shoot them first before they shoot you--the only decision under those circumstances.

**invisionz** · August 14th, 2002, 18:05

Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports aswell...

Originally posted by jw
Without the US, China would be an even poorer nation. 21% of China's exports go to the US, which totals around $48.72 billion. The citizens don't see any of that money, it goes to line the pockets of the men in power in China. Before you start criticizing the policies of the US, look toward your own country, though you would be put in jail due to the heavily monitored media and closely censored society, so I guess I don't blame you in a way. You're just trying to get on their good list to further your life much as anyone with any sense (including sleezy politicians) do.

**Todd** · August 14th, 2002, 18:29

Originally posted by invisionz
Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports aswell...

Indeed, which is why countries should continue to work together and we should stop trying to place blame on X country. The past is the past, we should learn from it and move on.

If someone feels strongly with an issue or thinks an injustice has been done then I encourage them to do what they can to make it right. (Examples in my last post) Use your local media; if the USA is to blame and becomes a large enough issue the media would be more then happy to raise the issue on slow news days. Then if public pressure is placed on the politicians they will act. It's more or less the system to get results.

**conkermaniac** · August 14th, 2002, 21:04

Originally posted by Todd

I just wanted to address one thing... Whenever you ask a government to pay for ANYTHING it will in the end come from us, it's citizens. The USA is by far one of the most giving countries around and in the end that means we pay higher taxes. The citizens for the most part are fine with this, as we want to help others in less fortunate places.

Well, that's true, but the money isn't coming from you directly. While it is true that Americans pay high taxes, they're nowhere near as high as those that they pay in many European countries.

So as Epgs said, don't complain that we don't give our fair share. What if after $200 million their research didn't help the situation and they were still off. Should we then give $500 million, $1 billion, more? Where do you draw the line?

A court ruled that the US was required to pay a total of $250 million dollars, and so far, they've paid a few million of that amount. If after $250 million dollars, they still can't fix the problem, then it's their problem to figure it out on their own.

Every country has a dark spot on their past here or there. I don't know the facts on some of those cases but ask yourself why any action was done. Generally you'll find the answer is for the good of the world. Compare it to the Afghanistan issue, before we attacked the Taliban, many people were criticizing the USA for getting involved with another countries government. Some people had incredibly strong opinions that we shouldn't be there. Then after the Taliban is more or less removed from the country the oppression has more or less stopped. Go ahead and do some searching on the topic: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/6185.htm

Yes, the Taliban deserved to be removed from power, as they had very little support from the people. There weren't elected. However, if you look at Arafat and Hussein, the US continues to ask for their removal (and you know that they're hoping to assassinate him). They are leaders elected by the majority of the people. In fact, Hussein was elected with 99% of the votes, I believe. Though there probably was some corruption involved with this election, as with all elections, I doubt it could have factored into such an overwhelming majority. If the US messes with these countries, then they are going against democracy.

Henry Kissinger once said that if the US wasn't pleased with the results of an election, they would interfere.

Even if the US did overthrow the Taliban, they didn't do it because of sympathy for the Afghans (though it ended up being that way). The only reason that they did this is because the Taliban was interfering with the US' plans to eliminate Bin Laden. The Taliban had been in power for almost a decade, making unjust laws. If the US truly cared about the Afghans, why didn't they get rid of the Taliban earlier?

What's my point? The point is that our actions may be opposed but they are done for the good of that country / the world. Can you say the same for the dark spots in other countries history? I'll leave that up to you but remember to view the issues with some perspective. We're not always right, but we're not always wrong either. If you feel that strongly on an issue do something about it. Go raise money for them, door to door, marathons, donate money from your paycheck, contact your government to see if they are willing to help, etc.

I realize that all countries have their dark sides, but these are issues that continue to affect us today. I mean, testing nuclear weapons on someone else's land is a very serious issue. So is the declining phosphate in Nauru, as that country has no natural resources (because they were all stripped away when the Australians wanted to mine phosphate), and perhaps as soon as next year, we won't know what this tiny island is going to do.

My government? I can barely speak Chinese, and I don't think the US needs to pay China for anything. I'm speaking for all those countries in the world that deserved to be paid. I could try speaking to the US government as well, as I am a citizen there, but I doubt they'd listen, as they get too many e-mails a day. Plus, I wouldn't be able to get enough signatures from Americans, nor would some money do any good.

Many of the US actions were not for the good of the world. As I mentioned before, many of them were started as a result of multinational companies. Woodrow Wilson, for example, invaded the Carribean and Central/South America thanks to the multinational companies. A quote from Smedley Butler that has become famous today:

I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank to collect revenues in... I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras "right" for American fruit companies in 1903.

Clearly, the interests are not for humanitarian aid. The US does not have this much money to waste, and most of its actions are for keeping its status as the world power and for benefitting its own economy.

Find me proof that the net flow between third-world countries and the US flows away from the US, rather than towards. But I have seen no proof of that thus far, while I have seen a lot of proof of the countries giving back more than what the US gives them, including numerous offline resources.

And it's true that the US needs most things that are made in China. I've been taking a look at many top clothing brands, accessories, toys, machines, etc. seem to have been made in China. Without these imports, the cost of clothing might cost anywhere from 1.5 to 2 times as much, as manufacturing costs in the United States are ridiculously high. I don't think the US would be stupid enough to accept useless imports.

**Webdude** · August 14th, 2002, 23:15

Originally posted by invisionz
Look at it another way, U.S needs those exports as well...

Yeah, we really need all those McDonalds and Burger King toys

Actually, there would be more jobs here if we made the stuff ourselves. Stuff would cost more, but that many more jobs could result in lower taxes for every individual as well.

**Canuckkev** · August 14th, 2002, 23:19

Something about clothing...if it is made in Western countries, not in sweat shops, it will cost a lot more, as you said. But, it will also be of a lot better quality.

The past is the past. If you have a gripe about what the US is currently doing, it would be better to voice your opinion about that issue.