I don't like paypal very much

[Decker]

am I missing something

Yes you are, your interpretation of the law, in whatever country, is biased towards you always being right and having rights that you deem yourself due.

Before spouting off this rubbish, check your facts 'properly' or better still stop spouting!

 

[Richard]

"every right" is a very broad term, I believe you mean say they may have that right in very specific, and controlled situations, at best. They cannot close your account - do you mean to tell me I could go to the USA, take out a home loan, and have that account closed and be forced to repay the remaining sum? Of course not! Anyway I don't believe any bank anywhere has the right to freeze your funds, as far as I'm aware the only people who have that right are law-enforcement agencies; and a law enforcement body freezing your funds isn't the same as your bank freezing them.I know for certain that is not the case in Australian law. If I was to run over a young woman, and the piss on her while she died, and scream abuse at onlookers - and then hired her father to be my lawyer to defend my case, even then he could not refuse to work for me. He could try and stop me, he could say "I think this would be a conflict of interest", or "I think there's someone better for you", or whatever he wants, but he would still have to represent me if I said "no, I want YOU". The only real legal way I can see of him getting out of it would be to retire as a lawyer.Well in Australia that would be illegal and you could then hire another lawyer and sue the first lawyer for abandoning your case against your wishes. You see in Australia your legal right when you hire a lawyer is to have that lawyer act in your best interests, and do as good and complete a job as they possibly can. Now my wording isn't very good there but all I mean is that a lawyer's self-interests cannot intervene.

Let me relate this to PayPal - even if the USA and UK allow such abominable acts by banks, we do not. Thus PayPal Australia Pty Ltd (a subsidy of PayPal Inc) should not get away with the BS that that is illegal for banks to try.

Okay - then the lawyer quiting in AU is illegal - But its not in the US or the UK. My monther happens to be a lawyer in the UK, so I know and I have family in the US.

On the bank - I seriously recommend you head over to the US or UK and pick up an application form with their full Terms of Servers - They CAN freeze your funds or shutdown your account at any point.

 

[Decker]

Could someone else in AU clear up whether it is illegal or not

 

[Meksilon]

Okay - then the lawyer quiting in AU is illegal - But its not in the US or the UK. My monther happens to be a lawyer in the UK, so I know and I have family in the US.

Well I find that disturbing. It's not like the jury can walk out half way through.

They CAN freeze your funds or shutdown your account at any point.

They can freeze your money? Then why would you ever trust them with it in the first place? As for closing your account, until you show a more reputable source, I refuse to believe they can close your account without you first breaching the TOS, or doing something illegal, or overdrawing your acc and not paying back the funds, or something that's clearly your fault. The federal government is now making it so that banks cannot charge their customers a fee for using a compeditor's atm (but the fee can be applied the other way around - ie the atm owner can charge you a fee).

 

[Decker]

Obviously not farmiliar with the term 'someone else'.

 

[Richard]

Well I find that disturbing. It's not like the jury can walk out half way through.They can freeze your money? Then why would you ever trust them with it in the first place? As for closing your account, until you show a more reputable source, I refuse to believe they can close your account without you first breaching the TOS, or doing something illegal, or overdrawing your acc and not paying back the funds, or something that's clearly your fault. The federal government is now making it so that banks cannot charge their customers a fee for using a compeditor's atm (but the fee can be applied the other way around - ie the atm owner can charge you a fee).

No - They do not freeze YOUR money, they freeze THEIR money - If a bank goes bust, what would happen to your money?

As soon as you put money in the bank - Its theirs, its no longer yours.

 

[Meksilon]

No - They do not freeze YOUR money, they freeze THEIR money - If a bank goes bust, what would happen to your money?

As soon as you put money in the bank - Its theirs, its no longer yours.

Banks aren't treated as individuals. It's true if you said to me "I want to buy a case of beer but I have no money, can I borrow yours?" and I say "yes", and you walk in and buy a case of beer, and they ask you "is this your money?" you should say "yes it is" - since you're not paying for it on my behalf, you're spending "your money". But that doesn't mean it isn't your money in the bank, if that was the case they could just keep it all whenever they want. I'll provide proof this time:

Who owns the money in the account?
You do! However, as part of your contractual relationship you agree to allow the bank to deal with your funds as it sees fit, as long as they repay the money according to the agreement you have made. For example, if you have a term deposit, you are only permitted to withdraw funds at intervals laid down in your agreement with the bank.

http://moneymanager.com.au/tools/factsheets/bank_relations.html

 

[Decker]

I knew you couldn't resist, your still interpreting to your ends.
It doesn't work that way - trust me they will prove you wrong if you try it, so just let it go it's getting tired and boring.

 

[Darknight]

Please stop making australias look stupid on the internet

Yes the money in the bank is legaly yours but If the bank gos bust your screwed and they wont have to repay you lol....
They take money out as they see fit, Charge for this and that.. They have control while your money is in the bank..
At the end of the day they have the final say, You can fight it and probley even win... But it dont change the fact that they are in control.
They hold checks for 3 days for no reason at all.. It dont take 3 days to 'Clear' and if you pay them extra for a large check they will clear it in 2-3 hours...

Anyways at what point did this thread become about banks.. Paypal isnt a bank

 

[Decker]

Basic but true

 

[Meksilon]

I knew you couldn't resist, your still interpreting to your ends.

It's your money, and not the bank's, and they can't stop you from taking it out. A contract with a Bank isn't an IOU, it's a contractual agreement to store your funds, and to use them for the bank's benefit (ie investments).

It doesn't work that way - trust me they will prove you wrong if you try it

"trust me", "they" will "prove" ... yep those are truly the words of someone who knows better then a professional financial advisor. Here's a page which briefly explains your rights to claw back unauthorised transactions, related to ATM/EFTPOS, they also appear here - and as you can see any unauthorised transaction you have not contributed to must be refunded in full to you. You can also find the Consumer Credit Code, credit cards come under that legislation (it's mandatory and enforceable legislation).

Yes the money in the bank is legaly yours but If the bank gos bust your screwed and they wont have to repay you lol....

What does that have to do with BANKING? That's bankrupcy, a completely different thing, and it doesn't mean a bank doesn't have to pay you - quite the opposite, to declare bankruptcy you must repay everything you can first!

Anyways at what point did this thread become about banks.. Paypal isnt a bank

What I said was that PayPal Australia Pty Ltd should come under the same legislation as banks, because they offer the same "service".

 

[Richard]

Please stop making australias look stupid on the internet

It's a good job we know you are not all idiot Just a remote few *points at Meksilon*

:lol:

 

[Dan]

Well, when you look at it, PayPal can be looked at as a sort of Virtual Bank, can it not?

 

[Darknight]

I think the point was something about paypal not having the same laws as a bank.. You could class it as a bank though.
/me dont know whats going on

 

[Meksilon]

It's a good job we know you are not all idiot Just a remote few *points at Meksilon*

:lol:

And yet no one else seems to have even an remotely equal understanding of the law in this area - and is able to back it up with sources? All I get from you guys is a bunch of hearsay arguments! Did anyone besides me actually read the 15-page TOS when they opened their saving's account? :beer:

[rant]
You know I used to work for Foxtel, and the AFS we used required 2 signatures, the first was "I confirm that I have been supplied with the statement and notice in accordance with door to door legislation" - do you know what that means? I do - I read the act - it means that the agent (ie me) has to read to you in full out-loud the mail-in notice and then hand it to you the customer - that's the law. Guess how many times I read it to the customer? Zero - because as long as they sign the contract they have legally testified that I did read it to them! I'd still give them the cancellation notice (even though foxtel stopped suppling us with them at one point!)

Now think about that - it's their right that I read it to them, they should say "I'm not signing that until you read the notice!" It's just plain stupid to sign it otherwise - but they did. And furthermore quickconnect would sometimes give them an installation date witin the first 10 days - that's technically not legal; but they can do whatever they want since that's not my part. In the ACT you cannot take money or provide your services within the 10 day cooling off period. A few times I had an installation 2 days after the contract was signed - now the customer should have said to the installer "you cannot take my money until the end of the 10 day cooling off period" - did they? no, because they're idiots and have no idea about the legislation.

The second one says "please sign below to confirm that you have received a copy of the Foxtel Digital Subscription Agreement, that you agree to be bound by those conditions, you have read the Foxtel Fact Sheet printed on the front cover of this booklet, and that you understand the following..." - guess how many people read the "Fact Sheet"? Zero. And 90% of the time they signed the contract before even being given the "Foxtel Digital Subscription Agreement" - which I had read several times, but the customer never once read prior to signing (I would sometimes give it to them right away, and sometimes after they signed it). I had of course a full understanding of it so that if they ever asked anything related to it (at any time) I could give an accurate and truthful answer - I doubt your average joe-foxtel-salesman has even the slightest clue as to what's in the TOS! Hell half the joe-salesmen couldn't even remember the number for quickconnect, the unprofessional git's.

I don't like going up against those odds, people are completely clueless as to their actual legal rights, have no idea of applicable legislation, and do not even bother to read TOS prior to signing contracts! Now unless you're the kind of person who does read every letter in a TOS, then reads the applicable legislation - then I doubt you have as full an understanding about the few parts of the law I've studied as I have. I don't know as much as I could about banking legislation, sure - but I do pretty much know everything that effects me, and my relationship to my bank. If you wish to say I'm wrong then please back up your claim with proof, instead of saying things like "well you'd have to go to court to enforce that" - which is simply not true in the majority of cases.
[/rant]

Paypal provides c/c's overseas, if PayPal Australia Pty Ltd was to provide them to Australian clients they would have to abide by the Consumer Credit Code that every financial institution that offers credit cards has to abide by... but basically I feel very strongly that as PayPal holds your funds in a way so similar to banks they should fall under the legislations that banks do - otherwise they're a Loan Shark.

 

[Richard]

Sorry - Can't be asked to read that.

The point I am trying to make - Is that you are WRONG for the US and the EU. You might be right about AU (Who knows?) but you are wrong about most other places.

 

[Meksilon]

Sorry - Can't be asked to read that.

The point I am trying to make - Is that you are WRONG for the US and the EU. You might be right about AU (Who knows?) but you are wrong about most other places.

Maybe, I don't know - but no one here's shown me EU/US legislation...

 

[Decker]

Maybe, I don't know - but no one here's shown me EU/US legislation...

Since your so good at quoting other details that pertain to your point of view I can recommend a good source for those details - google.com (you show up on it in various forums, some banned, can't understand why :tired2 - it's all public information under various freedom of information acts.

But then again with your wide knowledge of everything in this field you would know that wouldn't you :confused4

Don't assume no one else here has any knowledge of fiscal, legal or economic legislation regarding national or international process - or you'll fall into a hole bigger than the one your talking out of. Remember your talking to business people too, who's family income depends on knowing these things.

PP is regulated in each country it operates in by the appropriate authorities (sometimes they operate from a different country and provide to others), if you can't be bothered to even read their info don't go spouting incorrect information.

Now go get a life or at least a hobby.

 

[Meksilon]

Since your so good at quoting other details that pertain to your point of view I can recommend a good source for those details - google.com (you show up on it in various forums, some banned, can't understand why :tired2 - it's all public information under various freedom of information acts.

Haha, one site many years ago, and even that was only because 1 admin decided he didn't like me. The rest of the mods, and even admins disagreed - but it only takes one. I also have an unbanned username on that forum, while still disclosing my identity - and every admin & mod knows who I am... so don't go playing the banned game!

Don't assume no one else here has any knowledge of fiscal, legal or economic legislation regarding national or international process - or you'll fall into a hole bigger than the one your talking out of. Remember your talking to business people too, who's family income depends on knowing these things.

Yes, however even business people are like me at best and understand only certain parts of the law they see as being applicable to themselves.

PP is regulated in each country it operates in by the appropriate authorities (sometimes they operate from a different country and provide to others), if you can't be bothered to even read their info don't go spouting incorrect information.

Yes, but they should be regulated as a financial institution is my argument.

 

[Dini]

They froze the funds the first time after the dispute was opened and took out the same amount again when the dispute expired. Not sure if the guy got the money twice, but I was debited for it twice.

Yea, stuff happens heh

That second debit was prob the settlement fee PayPal takes for themselves :tired2: