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Over selling hosts - The List
- Thread starter InfiniteTech
- Start date
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midwesthosting
New Member
Please put me on the "List"
I wanna feel Special
People who make these kind of post have no Life
Stop looking for reasons the complain
I wanna feel Special
People who make these kind of post have no Life
Stop looking for reasons the complain
Say you have 1000 Gb of data transfer.
You offer plans with 100 Gb of transfer. Normally you should be allowed to make only 10 accounts, correct? But you know some people will not reach their 100 Gb limit. So instead of creating the 10 accounts you normally can, you create 20. Hence, overselling the resources you can provide.
But, some host's actually will provide this as the need arises, hence the difference between some oversellers.
Dream Host are not good and I can vouch for that. I am not in the game of knocking down host providers but I do have to say that one of their clients moved to me recently because he was sick of the downtime and the bad support.
I asked him how much he was paying at DH and what he got for his money. His reply "I pay 120 USD a year and they give me 20 GB of Disc Space and 250 GB of Transfer..." He explained that he didn't need it.
My reply to him was "No wonder your site is going down every few hours."
InfiniteTech
New Member
Thats the perfect example of... Over Selling Hosts!
Yeah you are right, but until someone sets a boundary and actually tells the general public about it, then just us talking about it here isnt going to make a difference, after all what you have to remember, hosts like DH and 1&1 dont need us, they get their bussiness from the other 95% of people in the hosting market, who dont have a clue, until we define what is good or bad ( ie how far a host should go) and devise some method of making sure this definition is known to most who are looking into webhosting, then most companies wont even care, no matter how much we question their position.
amc
amc
[ih]Demetris
New Member
Its actually possible for large corporations with there own DC to be able to offer such packages etc
Here is how you can achieve large and unlimited disk space with bandwidth channeling
I understand what the concern is with this issue; and yes, it does have validity if you do not have the proper equipment and knowledge about how basic infrastructures of MIS or LIS system networks are designed.
Basically, over LDAP login requests (AD) "Active Directory" or NFS mounts with either technologies can be "Clustered". This is a specific designed mainly used by windows networks or Linux networks requesting an NFS mount to another system. How does clustering and fault tolerance work? Well, first off your local host is installed with a Fibre channel card that is connected to an EMC or XP1024 Frame. The card is then zoned by a World Wide Name or "WWN" to present the virtual disk space. However, to complete this and have it is accurate configuration Window Server 2000 - 2003 Enterprise or Data Center Edition is needed. Windows Server 2003 Standard or Windows 2000 Server will not work because cluster service is disabled in the kernel compilation.
After the zoning of the WWN and the cluster has been completed with how ever many nodes are needed and the logistical configuration is finished, then the disks up to 4TB can be formatted and then be used. There are dynamic disks expansions but that is done usually done though some type of Veritas software or an other vender that will allow dynamic disk expansions under the size of 4TB.
Fault tolerance and NIC teaming are disabled of the Operating system. You must have the vendor software IE "HP, IBM or DELL" server NIC software to enable a "Team." The average speed of a team a depends on which type of card you use. You can do a Fiber team. This will MESH both ports on the card being used to channel bandwidth and allow maximum data ingress and egress to the host requesting the binary.
I do apologize if you are not able to underhand how this technology works, however, please visit www.microsoft.com or www.HP.com and search "Clustering for Windows or Linux" to get further details.
Here is how you can achieve large and unlimited disk space with bandwidth channeling
I understand what the concern is with this issue; and yes, it does have validity if you do not have the proper equipment and knowledge about how basic infrastructures of MIS or LIS system networks are designed.
Basically, over LDAP login requests (AD) "Active Directory" or NFS mounts with either technologies can be "Clustered". This is a specific designed mainly used by windows networks or Linux networks requesting an NFS mount to another system. How does clustering and fault tolerance work? Well, first off your local host is installed with a Fibre channel card that is connected to an EMC or XP1024 Frame. The card is then zoned by a World Wide Name or "WWN" to present the virtual disk space. However, to complete this and have it is accurate configuration Window Server 2000 - 2003 Enterprise or Data Center Edition is needed. Windows Server 2003 Standard or Windows 2000 Server will not work because cluster service is disabled in the kernel compilation.
After the zoning of the WWN and the cluster has been completed with how ever many nodes are needed and the logistical configuration is finished, then the disks up to 4TB can be formatted and then be used. There are dynamic disks expansions but that is done usually done though some type of Veritas software or an other vender that will allow dynamic disk expansions under the size of 4TB.
Fault tolerance and NIC teaming are disabled of the Operating system. You must have the vendor software IE "HP, IBM or DELL" server NIC software to enable a "Team." The average speed of a team a depends on which type of card you use. You can do a Fiber team. This will MESH both ports on the card being used to channel bandwidth and allow maximum data ingress and egress to the host requesting the binary.
I do apologize if you are not able to underhand how this technology works, however, please visit www.microsoft.com or www.HP.com and search "Clustering for Windows or Linux" to get further details.
Not bad per se, everyone does it to some extend.
The problem is when overselling becomes the host's only marketing method.
For example 100Gb space & 500Gb transfer for 5$/mo offered by Joe's Hosting. You get the point. Beginner hosts. There is absolutely NO way they can provide this and thus are scamming their customers.
When looking for a host, a good rule of thumb would be this:
If 1000gb of transfer costs the host 100$, can he offer what he's offering and
1) Cover his expenses (server, support staff, hosting software, etc)
2) Makes a slight profit. Because after all, it's a business.
A little math before signing up could spare you lots of headaches later on if the host closes down unexpectedly because he can't pay the bills anymore.
The problem is when overselling becomes the host's only marketing method.
For example 100Gb space & 500Gb transfer for 5$/mo offered by Joe's Hosting. You get the point. Beginner hosts. There is absolutely NO way they can provide this and thus are scamming their customers.
When looking for a host, a good rule of thumb would be this:
If 1000gb of transfer costs the host 100$, can he offer what he's offering and
1) Cover his expenses (server, support staff, hosting software, etc)
2) Makes a slight profit. Because after all, it's a business.
A little math before signing up could spare you lots of headaches later on if the host closes down unexpectedly because he can't pay the bills anymore.
[ih]Demetris
New Member
You explained the storage part, which is indeed possible to extend as needed, although very costly.
Now please explain how they can offer 2Tb of transfer for 8$/mo and 5$/mo respectively
Most data centers do not contract their lines by data use. Most of the larger companies contract the lines for x amount of dollars per month. So assuming that they own the dc there in its quote possible for them to offer these solutions and live up to them if necessary.
How can you determine that? You make a broad statement without any information about a company's infrastructure, base cost, or their client's usage patterns. 1&1 has quite a good business selling huge amounts of bandwidth and storage for relatively little money. They can do it because they know that the vast majority of their customers will not use anywhere near their allotment. It's called economy of scale.
I think some people are confusing overselling with poor management. Overselling itself is not a bad thing. In fact, it is an accepted, ethical, and practical business practice -- in hosting and many other industries. Perhaps the subject of this thread should be changed.
Brian
I think you missed the point - overselling to a reasonable to manage degree is not in question - overselling to a totally unmanageable degree is.
It's not called economy of scale - that's a completely misplaced phrase.
When you offer something you cannot possibly deliver to all the clients you accept you are 'scamming', when you offer something you can recover from if you miscalculate to all the clients you accept you are 'overselling'.
And it's not a fine line it is totally variable, some are just more blatently obvious than others however.
It's not called economy of scale - that's a completely misplaced phrase.
When you offer something you cannot possibly deliver to all the clients you accept you are 'scamming', when you offer something you can recover from if you miscalculate to all the clients you accept you are 'overselling'.
And it's not a fine line it is totally variable, some are just more blatently obvious than others however.
I didn't miss the point. In fact, your post reinforced the point I just made.
Exactly, except it is not a miscalculation that some will go above anticipated usage. It should be assumed and is part of responsible hosting practice. The problem for some hosts (besides the one who are truly scamming) is that they don't have any idea how much resources their clients will use (hence 40GB/1200GB for $1).
Continuing to use the term "overselling" for these "scammers" or whatever you chose to call them, is misrepresenting the term "overselling". It causes confusion:
GHPedro said:
Guys I'm not sure it necessary to argue over which phrase to use in this case, as we are assuming that those whom enter this debate, probably understand what the others mean, when they refer to the Overselling hosts, if they are not doing it to the detrement of their clients then there isnt a problem.
But we come back to the original point here, and despite very persuasive arguements from both sides, i believe this fact still stands that there is simply no such thing as unliimited.
Brian S i read your post, and i have to say, the point that many people are reffering to ( the scam that is offering unlimited, and there Overselling) still stand, so people will add servers as needed, and the space will increase, so lets go down a level, eventually, if enough people begin to use silly amounts of space then the cycle of profitability will be broken, and beyond that it only becomes a matter of time before the money runs out. Once that happens -- no more space.
The same I am afriad to say would still stand for bandwidth.
The fact that the above chain of events is unlikely to happen if the bussiness and expansion models are handled properly is irelevant. The company is deliberately misleading the client in the act of sale, the client ( in most cases ) will not fully understand what he is paying for, this should IMO be classed as Fraud. ( please note, this is ONLY when it becomes possibly detremental to the client or is likely to de-stablise the bussiness ) .
So you see, an Overselling problem does exist, and it applies both to companies that offer the scam of unlimited, and to those smaller companies, who offer drastically more than they can realistically maintain.
This isnt suppose to cause offence, I merely felt that perhaps this arguement did not belong in the region of technical information, but rather with simple, un avoidable, facts.
Best Regards,
AMC
But we come back to the original point here, and despite very persuasive arguements from both sides, i believe this fact still stands that there is simply no such thing as unliimited.
Brian S i read your post, and i have to say, the point that many people are reffering to ( the scam that is offering unlimited, and there Overselling) still stand, so people will add servers as needed, and the space will increase, so lets go down a level, eventually, if enough people begin to use silly amounts of space then the cycle of profitability will be broken, and beyond that it only becomes a matter of time before the money runs out. Once that happens -- no more space.
The same I am afriad to say would still stand for bandwidth.
The fact that the above chain of events is unlikely to happen if the bussiness and expansion models are handled properly is irelevant. The company is deliberately misleading the client in the act of sale, the client ( in most cases ) will not fully understand what he is paying for, this should IMO be classed as Fraud. ( please note, this is ONLY when it becomes possibly detremental to the client or is likely to de-stablise the bussiness ) .
So you see, an Overselling problem does exist, and it applies both to companies that offer the scam of unlimited, and to those smaller companies, who offer drastically more than they can realistically maintain.
This isnt suppose to cause offence, I merely felt that perhaps this arguement did not belong in the region of technical information, but rather with simple, un avoidable, facts.
Best Regards,
AMC
But you're confusing over selling resources with "Unlimited". They are are different beasts. I generally agree that offering "unlimited" bandwidth is misleading. But over selling resources is a legitimate *business practice*. The term is being incorrectly used, and that is the only problem I have with this thread.
Brian
Brian
Ok in simpler terms - you charge $1 for 1Gb of disk space and 10Gb of transfer.
This costs you $1-50, 10 users can be hosted by you at full capacity.
So you pay $15 - users pay $10, bad idea eh!
If you sell the same packages to 20 users and they only use the resources of 10 full packages you make $5 profit. So now your making a profit.
Suddenly all start using full resources - damn...
You have 2 options;
1. pay up the extra $15 when your only making $20 ($10 down already) but your overselling responsibly (or more accurately gambling that you can continue this action indefinately in order to support your users)
2. let your users down, hence having scammed them out of their cash by simply refusing to meet your responsibility to fulfil your part of the contract with the client.
So overselling has 2 levels, responsible & scam.
There is a third option not overselling based on the same base figures, sell half the package at the same price so ensuring your profit is secure and so is the funding to finance the support of your clients, but then you don't look as great in presales.
So in short unlimited (or unrealistic amounts offered) = option 2 = it is possible for all users to possibly want to use all resources.
This costs you $1-50, 10 users can be hosted by you at full capacity.
So you pay $15 - users pay $10, bad idea eh!
If you sell the same packages to 20 users and they only use the resources of 10 full packages you make $5 profit. So now your making a profit.
Suddenly all start using full resources - damn...
You have 2 options;
1. pay up the extra $15 when your only making $20 ($10 down already) but your overselling responsibly (or more accurately gambling that you can continue this action indefinately in order to support your users)
2. let your users down, hence having scammed them out of their cash by simply refusing to meet your responsibility to fulfil your part of the contract with the client.
So overselling has 2 levels, responsible & scam.
There is a third option not overselling based on the same base figures, sell half the package at the same price so ensuring your profit is secure and so is the funding to finance the support of your clients, but then you don't look as great in presales.
So in short unlimited (or unrealistic amounts offered) = option 2 = it is possible for all users to possibly want to use all resources.
Because if you read my post again, It was referenced to the rest of the hosts, not 1&1 etc. The ones you see advertised on fws. So 100$/1Tb is a valid general assumption.
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