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No war

Originally posted by syd
Nobody in that government cares what others think.

Well, not Bush anyway! This is from an article in my city's paper today:
"As for the protests around the world by millions of people opposed to war with Iraq, Bush said they were irrelevant to his duty to protect America."

What an ***!! What about all the Americans telling him not to go to war, does his own nation's opinion count for sh*t? He's got a lot of nerve for someone who got into office the way he did! :angry2:
 
This is not about oil. The oil will only be relevant in terms of rebuilding Iraq and stability of prices after the war. (OPEC won’t have an excuse then and they may have to compete more so.)

Here comes my rant on the topic… I jumped around so if parts don’t make sense or seem to be interrupted you know why. :)

Let’s lay out the information for supporting the war:

1. Saddam Hussein is evil and untrustworthy. Contracts can only be trusted if both parties are credible and trustworthy. Do you consider him credible or trustworthy? (Apply to the UN resolutions, their past performance, and personal beliefs about him.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2533229.stm

2. It’s clear that in the past they’ve had biological and chemical weapons. They’ve also pursued nuclear weapons:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/09/02/iraq.weapons/
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/bw-unscom.htm

Where did these weapons go? If he destroyed them then why wouldn’t he simply called the UN in and said here are the weapons. We want to comply, disarm, and do everything that is in the best interest of our country; so please destroy them and document it for our records.

3. Anti-* beliefs. Specific countries definitely raise their citizens to hate other countries and clearly this breeds terrorism. Countries that fail to stop this only create a larger problem and it seems some support that. Enough to go to war? No, but enough for serious concern that will hopefully be addressed by all respected countries.

4. Iraq was the prior instigator in the Gulf War, they invaded Kuwait and brought that upon themselves. That was back in 1990 and they’ve had all this time to stop these programs and to reform. Clearly they didn’t learn as they admitted to having a weapons program in 1996.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021117-iraq03.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/teach/gulfguide/gwtimeline.html

5. Iraq has in the past kicked out UN inspectors and seems to do so whenever the pressure is off. It seems to be a looping cycle and when he feels the pressure is off I have no doubt that he would try to do so again. At the very least he would do so if he didn’t believe that there was a threat that the UN would respond by authorizing military action. (Purely speculation based on his past actions)

6. Colin Powell’s address to the UN clearly presented disturbing evidence, rather then drag this on longer I’ll just link away:
http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030205-125557-6004r
Rather then address the issues they dismiss it without rebuttal:
http://www.whotv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1117231

7. Iraq consistently is firing upon coalition airplanes. If I take out a handgun and shoot at you then you can legally defend yourself by any means necessary. If I repeat the firing you will obviously want me arrested so I don't threaten you or your family. Apply it to the above situation. Yet it seems people view this as a non-issue as it happens so often that the media often gives it seconds of airtime and most people ignore it.


Reasons people oppose the war:
1. Belief that all war is unnecessary and any loss of life is unacceptable. This is the idealistic belief but unfortunately when dealing with those who don’t share your viewpoint it’s worthless. Here is a scenario I’ve previously heard and repeated, I find it quite effective:

You’re out walking when someone rushes up to you and starts punching you. This person is anti-violence and lets the person continue beating them. You fall down and the attacker forces you to get up or he’ll kill you. You can either get up or be killed. You get up and try to flee but the attacker knocks you back down and continues beating you. This can continue until you’re dead or until you choose to defend yourself. Do you defend yourself or die?

A perfect example? No, but this is the type of person we are dealing with. He would rather see us dead then alive and he isn’t using your using morals and ethics or else we wouldn't be in this position. Hence the "Can't we all just get along?" doesn't apply. :(

2. Containment is a better solution – Many believe he is indeed evil, has these weapons, lies about them, but that we should still just contain him. I personally don’t believe this is realistic but if they know the facts and still believe this then I have nothing against this viewpoint. I would respectfully disagree but that’s why we have two viewpoints. To learn from both sides and come up with your own conclusions.

3. It’s all about the oil, it’s all about Bush senior, it’s all about *. I think these are misinformed arguments and that Saddam has really brought this all upon himself. He wants a jihad (holy war) against the USA and Israel and will do what he can. As is he already supports suicide bombers and vice versa:
http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...onal/internationalAfricaHeadline_temp/2/2/10/
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-01-10-hamas-iraq_x.htm


Then top all of this off with liberating the Iraqi people. After the current government is replaced we can use their oil resources as financial security to help them rebuild and to support themselves. (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0211/p02s02-woiq.html)

We liberated the Afghan people when so many opposed. Now that the primary action is done those who protested are all but silent and the Afghani people are incredibly thankful, but yet we are far from perfection. (One example of many good things: http://www.defenselink.mil/photos/Mar2002/020311-A-8773J-023.html)

I really wish people would re-focus their anti-war protests to focus on specific issues to educate people on their viewpoints. I also question if many of those people of those people know the whole issues or if they have their own political motives. (Anti-Bush, Anti-Republican, Anti-American, etc.) These same people didn’t take to the streets to protest Iraq’s use of weapons on his own people but yet they protest the removal of Saddam and the liberation of the Iraqi people.

To be fair I can counter every one of my points from the opposite side. However, it always comes back to the question on if Saddam is a good person and if he has the best interests of the Iraqi people at heart. I think an overwhelming majority can answer that question honestly and accurately. Those people will never be convinced and getting any sort of action or approval of action from them is all but impossible.

I tried to use different news sources to avoid seeming one sided but I'm sure I can't please everyone. I'm not trying to convince everyone either, just look at the facts from both sides and then decide. If someone else wants to counter my arguments with links elsewhere feel free. Otherwise if people want me to I'll reply to myself and to play devils advocate. It would be better if someone else did that though. :)
 
I think most anti-war sentiments is largely the US's own fault. If they had presented their evidence - if they even have any - to the UN from the start and built up a case it probably wouldn't have come to this.
Instead they decided to make an attack on Iraq in the sense: "we're letting the world know we'll bomb Iraq. You can join us if you like but we really don't very much care whether you do or not. We're the USA and we do as we please".
Afghanistan wasn't a huge success, reports are going around of violations of human rights on the people detained after 911, the USA gave parts of its economy an unfair boost compared to others (steel industry for example). It didn't accept the international court and refused to ratify the Kyoto accord for a cleaner enviorment.
I know all of those points are very debatable on their own but they just give a setting. When the US then speaks with one - unilateral - voice that it's going to invade another country and doesn't need anyone's consent to do so and refuses to back up its claims with a dumb: "we know you have them, proove to us that you don't" there's bound to be opposition.

I never got why everyone perceives anti-war as pro-Saddam either. Anti-war is just a no to war without having exhausted every other means.
The weapons inspectors are there, let them do their job. If they find something then they can start disarming, if Iraq refuses that will be an acceptable trigger for everyone. If Iraq at one point keeps on stalling without cooperating that as well will be an acceptable reason.
The US is putting pressure on Iraq to comply to demands with the massive troop buildup but it shouldn't go to war on a whim. If there's reason the whole world will support it, until there is it'll be anti-war.

The whole reason for the NATO conflict wasn't that Turkey didn't deserve to be defended. It was a "we refuse to get pushed into the war mentality".
 
Originally posted by CareBear
We're the USA and we do as we please".
You're definitely right that many people over seas have this feeling. You have to understand though that the USA had to make this clear to Saddam. Otherwise the games would continue for another decade. We also had to be clear to those in that region that if they choose to back the USA up we won't leave the issue and they won't have to fear retaliation from Saddam for supporting us. Having said that if you still feel it was misappropriate then so be it, but hopefully that puts it in better context for you.
Originally posted by CareBear
Afghanistan wasn't a huge success, reports are going around of violations of human rights on the people detained after 911, the USA gave parts of its economy an unfair boost compared to others (steel industry for example). It didn't accept the international court and refused to ratify the Kyoto accord for a cleaner enviorment.
You're really going in to Anti-USA here and aren't sticking to the topic at hand. If you want to debate the other points feel free to open another thread and we can share our viewpoints there.
Originally posted by CareBear
I never got why everyone perceives anti-war as pro-Saddam either. Anti-war is just a no to war without having exhausted every other means.
A very valid concern but those who are in favor of this war come back with the Iraqi's aren't cooperating. The burden should be on them to show where these weapons are so they can be destroyed or to provide documentation of their destruction. They haven't done either and the inspectors are left to play cat and mouse with Iraq. Then the viewpoint is that when an evil person like Saddam has tons of chemical weapons (literally) that he will be able to seperate these weapons and he will be able to smuggle it out of the country so others can use it in their jihad against the USA.
Originally posted by CareBear
The US is putting pressure on Iraq to comply to demands with the massive troop buildup but it shouldn't go to war on a whim. If there's reason the whole world will support it, until there is it'll be anti-war.
The whole reason for the NATO conflict wasn't that Turkey didn't deserve to be defended. It was a "we refuse to get pushed into the war mentality".
I would hardly call this on a whim. We've waited a long time for compliance and it isn't coming anytime soon. The UN wouldn't even have inspectors back if it wasn't for the threat of force. Same for the U2 spy planes and other concessions. This is the only way we get through to Saddam and even then the Iraqi media (government controlled) claims victory and takes as many shots at the evil do-ers as possible (USA).

Trust me when I say we don't want to go to war but that we feel it's necessary. We obviously don't want to see soldiers return home in body bags and of course we don't want to see mass casualties. The only reason that any of us support the war is that we feel it's necessary for world peace, stability, and the liberation of the Iraqi people.

I can only hope that those anti-war people will re-focus their energies post-war to help the Iraqi people and for other humanitarian causes.
 
Personally, I feel Bush is a litlle pussy.

After 9/11 he had all those speaches "YES!, We WILL find and capture Ossama Bin Laden! We say NO to terrorism!"

And where is ossama now? Still hiding in my backyard, but thats another story.

So, Bush looked like a complete fool because he wasnt able to find an old man hiding somewhere.

*Bush Thinks* "Shit, what can I do to make 1000's of people forget the name ossama so I don't look like an idiot"

*Bush calls his daddy* "Daddy, what can I do? :cry2:"

*Daddy says* "Iraq my son"

That is the only logical explanation that comes to my mind why all of a sudden, the word ossama got replaced by the word iraq in all bush's speeches.


www.NewsAve.net/bush.jpg :rolleyes:
 
No, we cant find Osama, so we go after those who support him and other terrorists. The latter part was always a part of the plan regardless if he was found or not. In this case, it's Saddam. He has a long history of supporting terrorism regardless if it was Osama or some other. Remember, this is a "War on Terrorism", not a "War on Osama" and it never was. Osama is merely one of the many terrorists that we want to get our hands on.

I have absolutely no problem with a war on terrorism. We bully terrorist supporters into submission, and so terrorists no longer have a place to call home/refuge. However, I do not support pissing off our allies and making enemies of their people. That's a very big mistake that Bush is doing. Unfortunately it is the next President who will have to deal with it.....along with many future generations of people on all sides.
 
I know this sounds like nit-picking in the midst of your (close to) heated debate over a possible war, but jihad does not mean holy war. More correctly it means "struggle" or, if you like, "holy struggle" ...it means the day to day effort to live a holy life (since it is a Muslim term), and is an internal struggle, not external violence. Where it has been made to mean war, it is misinterpreted.
 
Good to know, thanks byrdgirl13. If you view it as holy struggle I can see why the media always reports it as holy war. (Considering the context used) Regardless it's good to know.

Anyone feel like counter acting the specific points of my prior post? I'll do it just to present a more balanced viewpoint to those issues but honestly I would probably do it less effectively then others.
 
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jihad

1) A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels
2) A religious war against infidels or Mohammedan heretics; also, any bitter war or crusade for a principle or belief.
3) a holy war by Muslims against unbelievers.

Both the media and byrdgirl13 are correct. The very word is a good reason why politics shouldnt be controlled by religion. It's the excuse for most middle east conflicts.
 
I can't remember where, but I do believe a few muslims saying that the dictionary translation was wrong.
 
My attempt to play devils advocate on my own opinions:

1. Saddam may be evil but it's not enough to go to war over. Going to war will only increase anti-American sentiment and you are doing exactly what terrorists want. Long term it will cause more problems.
2. They may have had biological and chemical weapons in the past but do they still? If so, where is the proof? Rather then risk potential problems with war let the inspectors do the best job possible at containing Iraq.
3. Anti-* beliefs will always exist as long as there are issues and people taking sides on those issues. War won't fix this problem.
4. Regardless of their past actions we shouldn't take a pre-emptive strike against the enemy. Let the inspectors do their best at detecting the weapons and hopefully in time Iraq will start complying.
5. The simple answer is to keep the pressure on Iraq to make sure they don't kick out inspectors again. A new UN resolution could also be introduced to address this problem.
6. Most of that evidence has been known for some time and I didn't find Colin Powell's address persuasive enough to change my opinion.
7. Retaliation is acceptable but only against the sites that fire upon the planes and not on the entire country.

I personally don’t agree with these viewpoints but both sides should be considered when you make your decision. I think a large number of people (both for and against the war) are simply unaware of many issues (or misinformed). I have nothing against those who are anti-war. As long as both sides listen to the issues and judge it based on the evidence then the right decision should be easier to reach. Just keep an open mind on this and all political issues in general.
 
Originally posted by Todd
5. The simple answer is to keep the pressure on Iraq to make sure they don't kick out inspectors again. A new UN resolution could also be introduced to address this problem.
They didn't the kick inspectors out last time, they left on their own because Iraq wasn't as being as cooperative as they wanted it to be. While you can put that they left due to Iraq's non-cooperation, Iraq didn't tell them to pack up their bags and leave.
One possible (valid) arguement on their side for non-cooperation then since you're being the devil's advocate was that too many team members were American/British and that the US intelligence sevices had infiltrated the inspector teams for the purpose of spying.
 
Originally posted by CareBear
They didn't the kick inspectors out last time, they left on their own because Iraq wasn't as being as cooperative as they wanted it to be. While you can put that they left due to Iraq's non-cooperation, Iraq didn't tell them to pack up their bags and leave.

...And then the US convieniently started bombing Iraq when inspectors were out...funny it was only in the news for about a day or two...

And from everything I've heard - and I have been following the news - Iraq has started complying, a while ago. American and British "diplomats" simply say that Iraq has done nothing to comply. Just a week or so ago, the biggest demand was that those U2 surveillance planes could fly over Iraq; they agreed to it, Bush said the compliance to the UN's biggest demand at the time was "too little, too late." That phrase is getting a bit old.
 
Originally posted by byrdgirl13


And from everything I've heard - and I have been following the news - Iraq has started complying, a while ago.

Yes, that is absolutely true. Iraq has offered some proof that they are not building weapons of mass destruction.

Anyway, I don't think N. Korea should be attacked. It would devastate China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan as well if the US attacked the nuclear sites there. :(
 
It's clear that America will not continue to be the world power until the end of this century. While nobody can compete with America militarily at the moment, if America goes to war with Iraq, a coalition of nations may team up against the US (including some European nations). It will increase anti-American sentiment around the world, as Todd pointed out. With the struggling American economy, I really don't know what's in store. :confused2
 
Originally posted by conkermaniac
Anyway, I don't think N. Korea should be attacked. It would devastate China, South Korea, Russia, and Japan as well if the US attacked the nuclear sites there. :(

And to the US itself, don't you think? I doubt N Korea would just sit back and let the US attack without any retaliation. And don't they have nukes? Let's see...where would they go for...San Fransisco? Seattle? Chicago? Washington? If they have nukes and the US attacks, I'd be surprised if they don't put them to some use.
 
Originally posted by conkermaniac
It's clear that America will not continue to be the world power until the end of this century. While nobody can compete with America militarily at the moment, if America goes to war with Iraq, a coalition of nations may team up against the US (including some European nations). It will increase anti-American sentiment around the world, as Todd pointed out. With the struggling American economy, I really don't know what's in store. :confused2

Our economy is struggling compared to what it is used to having. However, you missed the fact that the American economy at it's weakest point is still stronger than any other. You also have to realize that America keeps many other economies working. To attempt a coalition against America would hurt many other country's economy. America buys a LOT from other countries. From automobiles to toothpicks, to parts for everything we build, we buy from other countrys. You would hurt America some, but you would also devastate your own economy by doing so. America is your country's biggest client. You either work for an American company in your country, or you work for one that sells to America. Wanna risk your own job and everyone else's?

Originally posted by byrdgirl13
And to the US itself, don't you think? I doubt N Korea would just sit back and let the US attack without any retaliation. And don't they have nukes? Let's see...where would they go for...San Fransisco? Seattle? Chicago? Washington? If they have nukes and the US attacks, I'd be surprised if they don't put them to some use.

How far do you think their missiles would get before we knocked them out of the sky? The U.S. Government is concerned about the likes of China, who could shoot 100 missiles at us and there might be that "one" that gets thru our defense shield.....but N Korea? I doubt they have enough to concern us that much. Let me remind you that a LOT of countries have nukes. What they dont have is the technology to create the delivery system that can reach America. It's a lot harder to successfully deliver a nuke than it is to create one. It's even harder to try to create one without testing it. While the U.S. has missiles that can successfully hit anywhere in the world....other countries dont have that option. They cant test their missile technology without us knowing about it......so you other alternative is to build one, fire it, and hope you have been 100% accurate in building it all with absolutely no mistakes. Even then, you have to worry about us knocking it out of the sky, and then our own missiles heading to you..

North Korea is not a threat, merely a concern.
 
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