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To the darn conservatives on this forum...

Originally posted by Canuckkev
Hey, I like that, "right" wing.

I haven't paid much attention to the news lately...

Anyways, I trusted that if they were so sure Saddam had WMD or was developing them, the war was necessary.

But, now that it is taking a while to come up with the goods, it makes me wonder. Where is the immediate threat?
Bingo...I too would have supported the war if there were WMD being aimed at us, but since it's taking so long to find them, it's clear that never a major threat.

Has it not become obvious that the Bush admin is trying to shift attention away from the weapons and instead focus on how the US improved human rights in Iraq? However, I don't think many people will buy this argument...

This war was all about freeing up oil to American interests. Bush was planning at first to use Saddam's human rights record as an excuse to invade. He knew, however, that liberals would never buy this, knowing that there were better countries to invade if human rights was concerned (like China and many African and Southeast Asian nations). At the same time, far-right conservatives would not accept the plan because they believe that the US should mind only its own business and no one else's. Thus, he used the excuse of weapons of mass destruction, forcing the CIA to find the most trivial of information to persuade the public. Now that he's retracting all of those claims and returning back to the human rights issue, he once again has to face up to the liberals and diehard conservatives, and I'm not sure he can succeed...without the help of the people that Conscript listens to. :p

BTW, Conscript, Fox News has a reputation for being notoriously conservative. That poll that you posted is either outdated or seriously biased...or both. I'm sure that most Iraqis are happy with the departure of Saddam Hussein, but they have certainly not been happy with the American troops ever since the war ended.
 
Originally posted by Conscript
How could you be so ignorant? People of Iraq approve of the USA's actions and thank us for liberating them. There was a poll taken that stated that 65% approve of the USA and 15% are firmly against (rest in between).

You're a liberal and you live in la la land, so this kind of ignorant statement is expected, but damn. I'm soooo glad you only represent a minority view in this country, while the MAJORITY of Americans know better.
First of all, the People's Republic of China (PRC) isn't la la land or whatever you want to call it, its now a technological advanced country. It's now not so communist anymore.

And I also agree with Daniel that you are influenced by biased media.

If Fox, CNN, Reuters, NBC etc post a report which is true against Bush, they would probably close down the day after.

Think about it.

Anyway, you can't believe any word they say, lets take Intel and AMD's benchmark for example. Intel will probably favour itself in its own benchmark test, adding a few points. Likewise for AMD.

In TV channels, every channel claims to be first (at least in Singapore).

You have no knowledge how biased they are, unless you know about every single thing, which you should probably open an unbiased news channel then.
 
Originally posted by conkermaniac
Personally, I don't know a single liberal who supports the war, and Republicans, Democrats, and independents all can be conservatives. There seems to be this misconception that only Republicans are conservatives, for some reason.
conkermaniac, we've gone around on the war issues. My reply was to say why the American people mostly still support Bush and not to debate the issues. That's been done and people are sick of the debate, you can see that first hand from Robert's comment.

With that said I wanted to address your above point. The use of the word conservative is a pseudonym of sorts for republican. If you mean otherwise please state it as the definition of conservative won't spit out their ideals if you get my drift. Anyway, many democrats and independents also supported the war. Check the house/senate votes and view public opinion.

Apart from that I've stated the reasons why most people still support Bush and his actions. If you disagree with it so be it but that's why there is still such high approval levels.

One final thing is the media bias garbage. People constantly confuse hard news and political analysis. Make sure you know what you're watching and can differentiate the two. It doesn't take a genius to tell when a commentator is trying to sway your viewpoint instead of simply reporting the news. If you don't trust CNN, Fox News, Reuters, AP, MSNBC, ABC, or any other big news sources then you've got issues. Review the hard news and make your own opinions. If you really don't trust them then view third party news stations on the Internet but always come to your own conclusions and only trust verified news stories.

Same goes for the Internet, newspapers, and all communication methods. Use your brain to realize when someone is trying to sway your opinion and look for key words that show their true intention.
 
If you don't trust CNN, Fox News, Reuters, AP, MSNBC, ABC, or any other big news sources then you've got issues.

Exactly! People say I'm "swayed" or "brainwashed" by the media, well I'd like to know where they get their information. I regularly watch Fox News and I do read Reuters, AP, and others (usually when they're linked on Drudge). So I do get a variety of slants and viewpoints, and that's how I decide what is right and wrong.
 
http://news.google.com

I know a number of times I've found sites that were highly opinionated there. Another words sites that have political commentary and not hard news. The view points go both ways and the most intriguing are the ones that oppose public opinion.

As long as you review both sides of an argument and form your own opinion then you're informed and have the right to believe what you want. Just try to see both sides of the issues and don't stamp labels on issues such as democrat or republican. Always take the issue on it's merits or else you won't get very far.
 
I've been trying to restrain myself from posting in this thread, but Conscript's ignorance is really bugging me.

Originally posted by Conscript
So I do get a variety of slants and viewpoints, and that's how I decide what is right and wrong.
So I guess you know everything right? I bow down to you omniscient god of everything.

I see you you're from China and might not know what freedom is like. Well, don't worry, the USA will be liberating you soon
And I'm sure that you believe that China has absolutely no freedom at all... Stop reading your 1960s textbooks.

After the Patriot Act and all that other crap Bush passed while in power, I'm sure Americans don't know what freedom is like either. :rolleyes: Don't worry, perhaps some day, China will come and liberate you.
(If you don't get the sarcasm, you shouldn't be the one deciding "what is right and what's wrong")

And I'm also sure you feel that the United States is always right and therefore has the right to attack any country it wants, even the most populous contry in the world. (Yeah, why don't you go bomb and kill some couple hundreds of millions of people? That's "liberation" all right.)

Despite what you may say, your attacks on conker's country was totally uncalled for and shows nothing but your own ignorance and inability to see another person's viewpoint.

You're a liberal and you live in la la land, so this kind of ignorant statement is expected
Gee! That was an excellent and thought provoking comeback! :rolleyes:

Thanks for calling China "la la land". I'm sure they enjoyed that comment. Have you ever considered the fact that you are ignorant yourself? I never did consider myself to know everything, so I learn, that's how I improve. You, on the the other hand, feel yourself to be perfect. This attitude is easily seen in each of your posts: your arguments have absolutely no redeeming quality and have no proof. Instead, all you do is flame other people's viewpoints and bash their countries. I'm sure you're going to be bashing Canada next.

conservatives are always right, hence why they're called right-wing, and liberals are wrong
I sure hope that's a joke, because after all the other ignorant posts I have seen from you, it seems that you live behind this paradigm. How can you claim to be viewing things from a variety of slants if you already believe that all liberal viewpoints are wrong? You have no right to judge another person's stance until you fully understand their reasoning.


[edit] It seems that Todd posted while I was typing up my super long response... I would just like to say this: very well said Todd! Your post basically summarizes everything: there is no one correct viewpoint, but only viewpoints that a person feels is more fitting to the situation at hand.
 
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didn't think it would come to copying & pasting a little dose of TRUTH to the liberals here.

Well here is the proof that all the statements the Democrats are claiming against Bush (such as that he's lying and so forth) are wrong.

President Bush's State of the Union speech was a bit over 5,400 words long. The mainstream American media is focusing entirely on just 16.

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Those 16 words are now the core of a Democratic Party assault on the credibility of George Bush, calling those words everything from a "deliberate lie" to "erroneous information."

Why so much attention to these 16 words? Leftists in politics and in the media somehow believe that they have finally found a magic political bullet they can use against George Bush in next year's election. The "Bush stole the election" rant failed, Enron didn't work, the "war for oil" line fell flat, and the "Bush is stupid" ploy only resonates among liberals. Plus, to the wrenching dismay of the left, most American now see that our economy is improving. Democrats are now acting as if their sole hope for a return to power rests with convincing the American people that Bush is a liar and that his lies cost the lives of American men and women in uniform in Iraq.

Consider, please, these additional lines I've pulled from Bush's speech:


The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax.

The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin.

Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent.

U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. (Some of these have actually been located.)

The International Atomic Energy Agency confirmed in the 1990s that Saddam Hussein had an advanced nuclear weapons development program, had a design for a nuclear weapon, and was working on five different methods of enriching uranium for a bomb.
The left is attacking none of these allegations as lies. They're ignoring these statements because they are true. What's more, each and every one of the allegations from Bush's 2003 State of the Union speech listed above constitutes a more serious charge than the 16 words that the left has been obsessing over for the past few weeks. The truth contained in those five statements renders the "Saddam tried to buy uranium" charge almost meaningless. The American public would have easily accepted those facts as reason enough to remove Saddam Hussein.

So, do these 16 words meet the definition of a lie? To classify a statement as a lie the statement must be untrue. Furthermore, the person making the statement must know it to be untrue at the time the statement is made.

Actually, we don't need to deal with the second element of proof, because the first element hasn't been met. In spite of the bleatings from the leftist media establishment, Bush's statement has not been shown to be untrue.

Remember, Bush did not say that Saddam had attempted to buy the uranium. His statement was "the British Government has "learned "that Saddam tried to buy the uranium. You may be surprised to know that Tony Blair's government is standing by the claim to this day!

Last week Blair made the following statement to the British Parliament: "In the 1980s, Iraq purchased somewhere in the region of 200 or more tons of uranium from Niger. The evidence that we had that the Iraqi government had gone back to try to purchase further amounts of uranium from Niger did not come from so-called 'forged' documents; they came from separate intelligence." This makes Bush's infamous 16 words absolutely true.

What's that? You say that this is the first time you've heard about Blair's statement? No surprise there. Blair's defense of British intelligence claims has been virtually ignored. As of the end of last week there had not been one mention of Blair's statement to Parliament in any major U.S. newspaper or broadcast news network. You can select from two possible reasons the American press has ignored Blair's words. On the one hand you can chose to believe that in spite of their vast resources, The New York Times, CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN and The Washington Post never learned of the contents of Blair's statement to Parliament. On the other hand, if you're more reality-based you can choose to believe that the media knew of Blair's words, but didn't want to publish them and see a vigorous anti-Bush story fall victim to the truth.

Leftists are desperate. Democrats haven't been so completely removed from federal power in generations. This Democratic powerlessness translates to media powerlessness for much of the mainstream Washington and New York press corps. Remember, over 90 percent of the people who write and report the political news stories traditionally vote Democrat. Their continued support of the losing side now has them on the outside. Their desperation to reassume their insider status drives them to ignore the truth about Bush's supposed "lies."

This week we learned of new statements from Islamo-fascist clerics pledging to "bring America to its knees." Let's ignore this, though, and obsess over the magic 16 words in Bush's State of the Union speech.


http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33558


This is simply a case of Democrats desperatly trying to win their power back, even if it means wrongfully discrediting our Nation's security agencies and entire executive branch.
 
Very well, and I just heard the news that Bush is still ranting about 'pursuading people to believe that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction although they haven't found any.'

And that's just a piece of crap.

Conscript, you can't believe everything they say, just because they ask you to eat shit, will you?
 
see... what none of you are seeing is... the whole 'war' is already 'over'. It's not over over, as in peace is restored.. but its already happened.. and its just worse if you put back what was taken from power and say 'Sorry, we f*cked up.'

They need to finish what they've started these Americans, so we can all f*cking get on with our f*cking lives and stop wasting f*cking precious space on these f*cking threads.
 
Originally posted by Todd


With that said I wanted to address your above point. The use of the word conservative is a pseudonym of sorts for republican. If you mean otherwise please state it as the definition of conservative won't spit out their ideals if you get my drift. Anyway, many democrats and independents also supported the war. Check the house/senate votes and view public opinion.
Yes, there will always be Democrats and Independents who support the war. And I still don't understand how the word conservative can possibly be a pseudonym for Republican. :confused:

Apart from that I've stated the reasons why most people still support Bush and his actions. If you disagree with it so be it but that's why there is still such high approval levels.
I was just reading an AOL poll, and it seems that there are more people who don't trust Bush at all than those who trust him a lot.

One final thing is the media bias garbage. People constantly confuse hard news and political analysis. Make sure you know what you're watching and can differentiate the two. It doesn't take a genius to tell when a commentator is trying to sway your viewpoint instead of simply reporting the news. If you don't trust CNN, Fox News, Reuters, AP, MSNBC, ABC, or any other big news sources then you've got issues. Review the hard news and make your own opinions. If you really don't trust them then view third party news stations on the Internet but always come to your own conclusions and only trust verified news stories.
The problem is that these news sources generally try to present more facts for the war than against it. They try to sway you towards their conservative views in the most subtle of ways. You won't realize this unless you are exposed to many news sources from all viewpoints...which I have done.

Same goes for the Internet, newspapers, and all communication methods. Use your brain to realize when someone is trying to sway your opinion and look for key words that show their true intention.
Great advice! It's too bad that Conscript can't read what you've just said, considering the garbage he just posted as "proof". :rolleyes:
 
Yes, there will always be Democrats and Independents who support the war. And I still don't understand how the word conservative can possibly be a pseudonym for Republican.

A conservative's views are aligned with those of the Republican party. They are one and the same to me.

As for Conscripts last post, the key elements in the post are "facts" ( I am assuming...). There is no language to try and sway opinion in those facts.
 
Originally posted by Canuckkev
A conservative's views are aligned with those of the Republican party. They are one and the same to me.
Correct, and I have a feeling most people believe they are one in the same. Whether that's right or not is up to the individual but for society's sake it's generally viewed as the same.

Anyway, with that said I think it's important to repeat that issues shouldn't be judged on a republican / democrat basis. Doing so will only result in slander being tossed in both directions and it'll kill the usefulness of the system. Then again I suppose a bipartisan system is an idealistic viewpoint. Ahh well.

Do me a favor conkermaniac, mark next July 15th on your calendar and if WMD hasn't been found then post about it and I'll admit I was wrong. If our intelligence services haven't found anything in a year then we've got bigger concerns. I won't say the Iraqi war wasn't worth it but you could technically get me to say I was wrong. :)
 
Originally posted by Todd
Correct, and I have a feeling most people believe they are one in the same. Whether that's right or not is up to the individual but for society's sake it's generally viewed as the same.

Anyway, with that said I think it's important to repeat that issues shouldn't be judged on a republican / democrat basis. Doing so will only result in slander being tossed in both directions and it'll kill the usefulness of the system. Then again I suppose a bipartisan system is an idealistic viewpoint. Ahh well.
Understood. I tend to see liberalism and conservatism as personal views, although the Democrats do tend to generally represent liberalism and Republicans conservatism.

Do me a favor conkermaniac, mark next July 15th on your calendar and if WMD hasn't been found then post about it and I'll admit I was wrong. If our intelligence services haven't found anything in a year then we've got bigger concerns. I won't say the Iraqi war wasn't worth it but you could technically get me to say I was wrong. :)
I'm uncertain as to whether there are weapons of mass destruction or not, but in my opinion, that is irrelevant. If it takes our intelligence that long to find these weapons, then obviously, it was never a major threat anyway. Countries like Pakistan and North Korea are a bigger nuclear threat to us than Iraq.

As for terrorism, I think I already mentioned that Saddam has no ties to terrorism besides funding those Palestinian terrorists. Which is Israel's business, not ours.
 
Hello all...

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Understood. I tend to see liberalism and conservatism as personal views, although the Democrats do tend to generally represent liberalism and Republicans conservatism.

I'll agree on that point... however...

I'm uncertain as to whether there are weapons of mass destruction or not, but in my opinion, that is irrelevant.

I don't think it is irrelevant..

If it takes our intelligence that long to find these weapons, then obviously, it was never a major threat anyway. Countries like Pakistan and North Korea are a bigger nuclear threat to us than Iraq.

In a country the size of California, I wouldn't discredit the US even if it takes a year. Keep in mind, the Iraqis could easily buried anything they wanted to in the middle of a desert in the middle of nowhere. It takes time. Not to mention I have suspicion that some of the weapons, or even most of them ended up with other rogue states such as Syria.

Nonetheless was a threat. Actually Pakistan is ruled by Musharaff who isn't a threat to the US. India and Pakistan seem to be making sure they don't go to war with each other. North Korea and Iran are the nations to be concerned about at this time.

As for terrorism, I think I already mentioned that Saddam has no ties to terrorism besides funding those Palestinian terrorists. Which is Israel's business, not ours. [/B]

Actually you are incorrect. Israel and Palestine both have the right to exist and the US very well has to push this process forward. Saddam had ties with terrorism in Palestine, but not to mention these groups also targetted US interests in Israel.

Furthermore, Israel is an ally of the United States. So as any, the US has a right to help Israel.
 
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