The Bible

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Webdude
This is a debate I like to put to other people also, couldnt resist. Figure he's either all powerful, or all knowing, but not both.

A) If all knowing:::
He would know the limit to his power.
B) If all powerful:::
He wouldnt know the limit to his own power.

Can he possibly be both?

(Couldnt resist that one, but really got to go now...)

We assume that God knows at least as much as us, but that also means that he must fully understand the feelings of lust and jealousy as well as humans do. In order to understand how humans feel, he must have felt those emotions himself. And if he has felt those emotions himself, then he can't be qualified to judge us.

One person said something very interesting on a message board today...

A perfect potter would make a perfect pot.
A perfect blacksmith would make perfect tools.
A perfect musician would make perfect music.
What kind of world would a perfect God make?

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Webdude
I dont think God is "just" the god of Christianity. He says in the Bible He has gone by many names. I think as long as you acknowledge there is a higher power than yourself (human)...well, I guess it depends on what you believe of it.

Well, you're very different from most Christians I've talked to. They call Islam an evil and wrong religion.

As for a son having to follow God instead of his parent..... if you have a dog that has puppies, once those puppies reach a certain age, do you expect the puppy to obey you? Or it's parent? You are the higher being, it should obey you. Of course, I know you will dig into that one, but it's the best example I could think of in a hurry.

I understand, but the Bible says, "Obey your parents." If God wanted us to obey Him before our parents, then he should have defined restrictions on the "Obey your parents" commandment.

As for God being partial, or any higher being with so much power over us, he can pretty much do whatever he wants. And you wanna know what? There's not a thing you can do about it.

Yep, God can do whatever he wants, including send atheists to Heaven and Christians to Hell. In fact, the two situations are just as likely. Why do you believe in Him then?

As for whether the Bible is real or not, how do you explain the amazingly accurate Book of Revelation? It explains out a nuclear war. It also explains (and Christians have been waiting to see this one for hundreds of years) how in Europe, many countries would form a common market and eventually all use the same currency. Sound like anything you know? It also says one man will rise into power over those countries.

The Book of Revelation does not say that, although its words can be twisted to interpret current events. The same can be said of Nostradamus. In any case, I have never seen any passages that refer to nuclear war or the Euro. Would you please post the passages in question?

You dont have to be Christian, or even religious to believe in what the Bible says. It gives history, it also seems to give an accurate view of the future. As we get closer to those times, we find it is not God doing all the destruction (as was believed back then), it is man himself, and his weapons of war. Now the technology is here, we recognize the technology in the scripts, and have a closer understanding of what Revelation is saying than people even 100 years ago did.

The Bible does not give an accurate account of history. Most of the things described in the Old Testament never happened. Take the flood myth, for example. Never has a wooden boat so large been built, and with only one 18 sq. in. window, there would be no way for air to be distributed to the different decks of the ark (maybe he has central air-con ). Furthermore, it is impossible to pack so many animals into that tiny boat, considering all the food, water, and other provisions that are necessary. What about disease? God risked having all the animals die right then and there. The flood also cannot explain how there are freshwater fish in the world and how there are so many species of animals in the world.

In addition, after using the genealogy in the Bible, I determined that the flood supposedly happened around 2500 B.C., even though any historian can tell you that early remnants of Chinese writing existed centuries before that date.

Accurate Bible chronology suggests that the world was created in 4026 B.C.

Genesis 5:3 "When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son...and he named him Seth."

4026 B.C. + 130 years...we're at 3896 B.C.

Genesis 5:6 "When Seth had lived 105 years, he became the father of Enosh."

3791 B.C.

Genesis 5:9 "When Enosh had lived 90 years, he became the father of Kenan."

3701 B.C.

Genesis 5:12 "When Kenan had lived 70 years, he became the father of Mahalalel."

3631 B.C.

Genesis 5:15 "When Mahalalel had lived 65 years, he became the father of Jared."

3566 B.C.

Genesis 5:18 "When Jared had lived 162 years, he became the father of Enoch."

3404 B.C.

Genesis 5:21 "When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah."

3339 B.C.

Genesis 5:25 "When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech."

3152 B.C.

Genesis 5:28 "When Lamech had lived 182 years, he had a son. He named him Noah."

2970 B.C.

Genesis 5:32 "When Noah was 500 years old, he became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japeth."

2470 B.C.

And there you have it.

 

[notnamed]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Yes, in fact, that is what most Christians have told me. My question is, however, why the Bible does not say Mary instead of Joseph, and why Eliakim, Salathiel, and Zorobabel are common to both lists, except they are in different places. I originally thought that they were different people, but they don't seem like very common names.

I can't give you an answer for that. That's just what I believe.

So do you eat shellfish? Do you follow all of the OT laws (don't worry shizzle, I haven't forgotten you )?

Yes, I eat shellfish. Crab is one of my favorite sea-foods. I follow all of the OT laws that I believe apply to me. If I'm not following one I'm supposed to, well, hopefully God forgives me for it.

I think that most men like actresses on the basis of lust.

Then, in my opinion, that is committing adultery.

But how do we know what is metaphorical? The above scripture might as well be literal.

I think it's metaphorical, most of the people I know think it's metaphorical. It's one of the things that you'll never know, so you just form your own opinion and hope for the best.

But if they are not Christian? The Bible does not say "Obey your parents only if they are Christian." It says, "Obey your parents," period.

I'm guessing that people who aren't Christians won't pay attention to rules applied to Christians for the sake of them being in the Bible.

So is he not impartial?

He's impartial all right, enough so that He gives you free will to choose. He showed enough mercy on all things before He destroyed them by giving them a chance to repent. It isn't His fault they didn't take it.

Sounds to me like the demons were causing the problems.

That's what I said originally. The demons were possessing the men and as such were blinding, muting, throwing pigs into the sea, etc.

So were you killed when you didn't listen to your parents?

Nope, cuz I asked for forgiveness...from God and them.

Two more questions...does God know everything? And what makes your religion any more right than another religion?

God knows everything, since He made everything. And my religion is not much better than any other religion...most Christian based religions have mostly everything Right (according to the Bible) but misinterpreted a few things. Some denominations of Christianity do that, it's human failure that does it.

We assume that God knows at least as much as us, but that also means that he must fully understand the feelings of lust and jealousy as well as humans do. In order to understand how humans feel, he must have felt those emotions himself. And if he has felt those emotions himself, then he can't be qualified to judge us.

One person said something very interesting on a message board today...

A perfect potter would make a perfect pot.
A perfect blacksmith would make perfect tools.
A perfect musician would make perfect music.
What kind of world would a perfect God make?

He did understand EVERYTHING that we feel. EVERYTHING. Because He came down to Earth as Jesus Christ. However, since He was God, He could not sin. The only way Christ even remotely sinned was when He took our sins upon Himself on the Cross. As to the world a perfect God would make, I'll bet...this one. "What??" you say? Oh, the world is indeed pefect. We just screwed it up.

And with that, I end this post to go point-by-point with Conk's next one :classic2:

 

[notnamed]

Originally posted by conkermaniac
Well, you're very different from most Christians I've talked to. They call Islam an evil and wrong religion.

I wouldn't go that far, but I'd say that there are a few points (according to the Bible) that are a little off. My Dad has a little booklet on most major religions and their discrepencies [sp] with the Bible, I'll look for it.

I understand, but the Bible says, "Obey your parents." If God wanted us to obey Him before our parents, then he should have defined restrictions on the "Obey your parents" commandment.

Obey your parents isn't the first commandment. You are to obey God above all else.

Yep, God can do whatever he wants, including send atheists to Heaven and Christians to Hell. In fact, the two situations are just as likely. Why do you believe in Him then?

Because He promised that if we obeyed what He told us to and followed Christ we'd get to Heaven. And I trust Him in that.

The Book of Revelation does not say that, although its words can be twisted to interpret current events. The same can be said of Nostradamus. In any case, I have never seen any passages that refer to nuclear war or the Euro. Would you please post the passages in question?

Same here...I don't know what he's talking about either...

The Bible does not give an accurate account of history. Most of the things described in the Old Testament never happened. Take the flood myth, for example. Never has a wooden boat so large been built, and with only one 18 sq. in. window, there would be no way for air to be distributed to the different decks of the ark (maybe he has central air-con ). Furthermore, it is impossible to pack so many animals into that tiny boat, considering all the food, water, and other provisions that are necessary. What about disease? God risked having all the animals die right then and there. The flood also cannot explain how there are freshwater fish in the world and how there are so many species of animals in the world.

Just like you said, if God can do anything, why not give the animals air, space and food, and hold off disease?

In addition, after using the genealogy in the Bible, I determined that the flood supposedly happened around 2500 B.C., even though any historian can tell you that early remnants of Chinese writing existed centuries before that date.

Were those scientists there when the Chinese wrote them? How do they know that they wrote it in 2500BC?

Accurate Bible chronology suggests that the world was created in 4026 B.C.

...

And there you have it.

Sounds right to me, although I thought more along the lines of 5,000 to 6,000.

 

[Webdude]

The Book of Revelation does not say that, although its words can be twisted to interpret current events. The same can be said of Nostradamus. In any case, I have never seen any passages that refer to nuclear war or the Euro. Would you please post the passages in question?

Well thats funny. Maybe you are reading something wrong in it. I knew in 1978 that such a formation would be made. I believed much of the Bible before it happened, but when I saw it come true, it hardened my belief in the Bible (well...God anyway). When I first started hearing of it in the news, I thought I was going to have a heart attack. You should read "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey (published 1970). You will read all about it. I still remember the day I first heard about it in the news. I could swear my heart stopped for a bit, and I dont think I was breathing either...LOL. Hal may be wrong about some things (time will tell), but he hit that one right on the head. So we are definitely in the end times, but Revelation mainly deals only with the last seven years (man's years, or God's years?), but no-one knows how long the "end times" time period is in total....7 years? 100 years? 1000 years? Just take a read thru Revelation and you will see there are specific signs that cant be missed. Such as when the bickering and arguing over the famous Temple of God finally being ended, and the temple being rebuilt, THEN it's time to start worrying... The dude on that pale horse is about to make his entry

Anyway, not to say I am closed minded. Aliens are mentioned in the Bible too. Just remember that Ezekial saw the wheel within a wheel up in the sky. Was God in a ship?

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by notnamed
I can't give you an answer for that. That's just what I believe.

But if you can't answer for all the discrepancies, then why believe in them?

Yes, I eat shellfish. Crab is one of my favorite sea-foods. I follow all of the OT laws that I believe apply to me. If I'm not following one I'm supposed to, well, hopefully God forgives me for it.

Yep, that's picking the laws that you want to follow and rejecting the laws that you don't feel like following. You either follow all the laws in the OT or none of them. "Picking and choosing" is certainly not what God wanted.

Out of curiosity, would you use Leviticus to condemn homosexuality?

Then, in my opinion, that is committing adultery.

OK

I think it's metaphorical, most of the people I know think it's metaphorical. It's one of the things that you'll never know, so you just form your own opinion and hope for the best.

I'm guessing that people who aren't Christians won't pay attention to rules applied to Christians for the sake of them being in the Bible.

If you're a Christian and your parents aren't, then you better obey your parents if they force you to turn away from God. Or else you will be killed.

He's impartial all right, enough so that He gives you free will to choose. He showed enough mercy on all things before He destroyed them by giving them a chance to repent. It isn't His fault they didn't take it.

A merciful God? Trust me, you do not want me to get into a discussion into the senseless cruelty of the Old Testament. This God has the temperament of a spoiled 7-year old brat.

That's what I said originally. The demons were possessing the men and as such were blinding, muting, throwing pigs into the sea, etc.

I think I see what you mean.

God knows everything, since He made everything. And my religion is not much better than any other religion...most Christian based religions have mostly everything Right (according to the Bible) but misinterpreted a few things. Some denominations of Christianity do that, it's human failure that does it.

What I want to know is why Christianity is RIGHT and Buddhism is WRONG. What makes you think that your religion is any more valid than others?

He did understand EVERYTHING that we feel. EVERYTHING. Because He came down to Earth as Jesus Christ. However, since He was God, He could not sin. The only way Christ even remotely sinned was when He took our sins upon Himself on the Cross. As to the world a perfect God would make, I'll bet...this one. "What??" you say? Oh, the world is indeed pefect. We just screwed it up.

A perfect God would also make a perfect man and not allow them to screw his world up. :classic2: And anyway, in order for God to understand everything we feel, he must have experienced them himself.

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by notnamed
I wouldn't go that far, but I'd say that there are a few points (according to the Bible) that are a little off. My Dad has a little booklet on most major religions and their discrepencies [sp] with the Bible, I'll look for it.

Obey your parents isn't the first commandment. You are to obey God above all else.

I already addressed some of this in the above post.

Because He promised that if we obeyed what He told us to and followed Christ we'd get to Heaven. And I trust Him in that.

You can trust him all you want, but nobody ever said that he would keep his promise.

Just like you said, if God can do anything, why not give the animals air, space and food, and hold off disease?

Because it's not in accordance with the laws of science. Why doesn't God do such things today? "God can do anything" is just another cop-out that Christians use, and it's senseless if you can't provide a logical scientific reason for it. Even Christians no longer use that argument when defending the flood.

Were those scientists there when the Chinese wrote them? How do they know that they wrote it in 2500BC?

Radio-carbon dating. BTW, don't give me that shellfish example because that idiot was dating the sediment, not the shellfish itself.

Sounds right to me, although I thought more along the lines of 5,000 to 6,000.

I'm just using the figure that most Christians give me.

 

[conkermaniac]

Originally posted by Webdude
Well thats funny. Maybe you are reading something wrong in it. I knew in 1978 that such a formation would be made. I believed much of the Bible before it happened, but when I saw it come true, it hardened my belief in the Bible (well...God anyway). When I first started hearing of it in the news, I thought I was going to have a heart attack. You should read "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsey (published 1970). You will read all about it. I still remember the day I first heard about it in the news. I could swear my heart stopped for a bit, and I dont think I was breathing either...LOL. Hal may be wrong about some things (time will tell), but he hit that one right on the head. So we are definitely in the end times, but Revelation mainly deals only with the last seven years (man's years, or God's years?), but no-one knows how long the "end times" time period is in total....7 years? 100 years? 1000 years? Just take a read thru Revelation and you will see there are specific signs that cant be missed. Such as when the bickering and arguing over the famous Temple of God finally being ended, and the temple being rebuilt, THEN it's time to start worrying... The dude on that pale horse is about to make his entry

Anyway, not to say I am closed minded. Aliens are mentioned in the Bible too. Just remember that Ezekial saw the wheel within a wheel up in the sky. Was God in a ship?

I don't know what to think of you right now, LOL. Other people would probably submit you to Fundies Say the Darndest Things, but of course, I'm too nice. Would you find the exact scripture for us, Webdude? You know, Revelation isn't very long.

 

[Owen]

UO

The problem is that most Christians pick and choose stuff that they like from the Old Testmant and reject the stuff that they don't like. Even though Leviticus condemns both homosexuality and eating shellfish, Christians cite the former, yet they disobey the latter.

So you're telling me that Christians don't have to follow those crappy rules in the OT? Then explain to me why Christians use those weird Old Testament laws to condemn homosexuals.

Christian who cite Leviticus to support certain beliefs are wrong, as he fufilled the law(Matthe 5:17. Look at the whole verse and fufill means to complete, to finish) therefore Levitical law is no longer in effect. However, homosexuality is still wrong. Look at Romans 1:27.

You might know that Matthew, the first chapter of the New Testament, begins with a meaningless genealogy (1:1-1:16) that in fact disagrees with Luke's version of the genealogy from David (3:23-31).

According to Matthew, Jacob was the father of Joseph, who was the father of Jesus. According to Luke, Heli was the father of Joseph. Now, David may have had many wives, but Joseph certainly did NOT have two fathers.

But the genealogies don't show every link in the chain. For instance, compare from David down in Matthew 1 to 1 Chronicles 3:10-15. Reason for that is groups of 14 is a memory device, so the whole list would not have been mentioned. The point of it was the show that Jesus was the son of Abraham and David, not to document every generation. That is why the "fathers" may not match up, because in the geneaologies, it isn't necessarily the immediate father, but rather an ancestrial father.

However, the Bible tells us not to listen to genealogies. So should we not listen to the Bible?

1 Tim 1:4 "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies."
1 Titus 3:9 "Avoid foolish questions and genealogies."

As was said previously, this was meant to say stop using family history as a reason to take someone down.

Jesus, in fact, wants good Christians to follow ALL of the perverted laws in the Old Testament. In Matthew 5:17, he says, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets."

And you didn't quote all of Matthew 5:17(as I implied earlier). Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

I have explained what that verse means. Jesus is not telling people to follow the "perverted" laws of the Old Testament.

He also considers looking at a woman with lust "adultery". Matthew 5:29 "That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her committed adultery with her already in his heart."

If you watch a movie and happen to like that actress, you've already committed adultery.

No. It is if you lust after the woman and think about sex with her that it becomes adultery. And besides, if there is a God, why can he not say what is right or wrong. Why does it have to be what you beleive is right or wrong whether to justify the authenticity of a religion?

Here's a rule that most Christians blatantly disregard. Don't pray in public. (Matthew 6:5-6)

But how do we know what is metaphorical? The above scripture might as well be literal.

You need to take the context of the verse. He was talking about the Pharisees who prayed in public to look good, but didn't mean it. He is saying don't be like the Pharisees. Context is very important.

You can try to say it might be literal, but common sense is important. In context, Jesus is saying don't be like the Pharisees.

Jesus came to earth to bring war and violence, as in Matthew 10:34, he says, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

Jesus is talking about seperated the believers from the things of the world. He is saying that people who accept him will be persecuted by(or divided from) others. That becomes clear when you look at the quote in verse 35.

Jesus was also conceited and arrogant. When the Pharisees criticized him for not washing his hands before eating, he rebuked them for not killing disobedient children. So here, not only is he upholding a heartless Old Testament law, but he is setting a great example for Christians -- when someone says that you did something wrong, find something wrong with them. (15:4-7) He also condemns cities to hell simply because they didn't feel like listening to his dreadful preaching. (Matthew 11:20-24)

He is simply quoting the old law and showing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. He is showing how the Pharisees think, not what is right.

As for condemning cities, if Jesus is the Son of God, then would he not have a "right" for condemning cities who rejected the truth?

Apparently, anyone who is dumb or blind or suffering from epilepsy is possessed by devils. (Matthew 12:22, 17:15)

No. It just mentioning a case that happened. It does not say because one person was like this, every other person is like that.

You're supposed to give up your family for Jesus. You're also supposed to always listen to your parents. Something doesn't check here...

So if a parent tells you to listen to them and then to listen to another adult, before any their commands clash, then the parent is contradicting themself? No. They are saying submit to other authority, not to follow everything they say and what they say also. You are taking principles the Bible teaches and trying to stretch them to contradict each other.

What a merciful god!

And who are you to judge the nature of God? Are you a god?

A perfect potter would make a perfect pot.
A perfect blacksmith would make perfect tools.
A perfect musician would make perfect music.
What kind of world would a perfect God make?[/QUOTE

A perfect potter would make a perfect pot, until someone messes it up. A perfect blacksmith would make perfect tools until someone messes them up. God made a perfect world until Satan messed it up. Now you can argue that if God were perfect, he wouldn't allow imperfection, but if the Bible is true, and the purpose of humans is to glorify God, then having a perfect world doesn't suit that purpose. Imagine creating a robot to worship you. Would it make you feel any better?

You might say God creating something to glorify himself is arrogant, but arrogance is to think more of oneself than one is, and I ask you if there is a God and he is perfect, who should he focus himself upon?

I understand, but the Bible says, "Obey your parents." If God wanted us to obey Him before our parents, then he should have defined restrictions on the "Obey your parents" commandment.

No. You are expected to use common sense. God created humans as a whole with basic logic, so we are expected to use it. You are basically trying to get rid of common sense whatsoever.

Yep, God can do whatever he wants, including send atheists to Heaven and Christians to Hell. In fact, the two situations are just as likely. Why do you believe in Him then?

Because of the things I have seen. Answered prayers and miracles(or different kinds) and how it aligns perfectly with the Bible. That is why I beleive. You may be skeptical of that, and I can not force you to beleive it, but it is what I have experienced.

With that, I am out for now.

 

[quantum4]

I am somewhat of an atheist but see no basis for the bible as an entity to begin with. I see no reason why there should be a god and why the bible must be applied to people who believe in different things. Certainly infringing in many respects. Owen, I have a bi friend... so how can you possibly say homosexuality is wrong? You base it on the words of scripture but yet it was this scripture that was written by men, not a entity you call god.

Answered prayers? Okay that is just laughable in my perspective. Well you are entitled to your opinion but do not infringe on the beliefs of others. We all have a different view on life and we must maintain those views or this world would be boring.

You foremost do not know if atheists, muslims, buddhists or anybody else are wrong in their beliefs and that you are right. So lets keep it at that. That is why I am a weak atheist, and haven't gone the full way to being a stronger one.

 

[Owen]

I am somewhat of an atheist but see no basis for the bible as an entity to begin with. I see no reason why there should be a god and why the bible must be applied to people who believe in different things. Certainly infringing in many respects. Owen, I have a bi friend... so how can you possibly say homosexuality is wrong? You base it on the words of scripture but yet it was this scripture that was written by men, not a entity you call god.

Look at how humans are created. Man and women were made for each other. Not man with man or woman with woman. You can argue they are born with it, but that is partially false. They are born with a propensity to be homosexual, just like people are with the propensity to be a liar, alcoholic, aggressive, etc, but I don't see people justifying people like that, sayet you see people justifying homosexuality based upon the genes.

And yes, your friend is in the wrong. However, she no worse than me in the eyes of God, because she is a sinner just like me. The world would view me as a good person, because I don't drink, cuss anymore, have sex, etc, etc. However, in the eyes of God, I am a sinner just like her. I am not a better person than her.

I also base it on words that I believe are inspired of God. If there is a God, he can do anything, including inspiring scriptures through men. Therefore, if there is a God, then it is possible the Holy Bible is correct. Since I beleive that, simply telling me it is written of men is not going to convince me. You have to show me that God is either A) not the Christian God B) would not inspire scripture or C) is not real to convince ME otherwise.

Why it should be applied to others that don't beleive? Because if there is a God that created us then we are his. He is our master, as the creator is the master/owner, in which case we should follow what He says. I believe that to be the Christian God.

Answered prayers? Okay that is just laughable in my perspective. Well you are entitled to your opinion but do not infringe on the beliefs of others. We all have a different view on life and we must maintain those views or this world would be boring.

As for answer prayers, I have proof, and I will mention them, but it is up to you to beleive them.
1) Late in my junior year of high school, I had no real friends to mention. I prayed to God that I would have some people to hang out. That weekend, I get invited to go out with a guy I know. I hadn't told anyone about that.
2) I have been some financial worries the past few months since I am college. I had been worried about praying that God would resolve those issues. Well, I am currently in the process of getting a job as a youth minister, which would pay me some extra money. Keep in mind I am a 19 year old, been a Christian for only 3 1/2 years, so that is hard to do.
3) To go off becoming a youth minister, the church which I am more than likely about to be at, was an answer to my prayers. I wanted the church to be a church will to make change and not be rooted in tradition, a situation where I could easily adjust since I was moving from a spot as a youth intern at a church with a youth I love, and a youth group that is seeking the truth. The church is currently moving towards being contemporary, the pastor there is good friends with the youth minister at the church I intern at till when and if I get this job, and the youth from what I have seen and heard is a youth group that is searching hard for the truth.
4) To add, a couple months earlier, I was trying to make a decision whether I should become a youth minister or not, and at the time God was telling me it wasn't the time. Well, this summer the question comes up, and I get a list of churches that need youth ministers. Well, the first church I pick is the church I am currently looking at, and it had just started looking for a new youth minister. God was telling me to wait a little while so I would go to this church I am more than likely at(just a few final details to finish)

Those are just the big ones off hand. There are many smaller ones that I remember that happened, but I can not recall the specifics of them.

While not really an answered prayer, everytime I get on a spiritual "high" something fairly big comes up to try to get me to question my faith. Happened today with this thread for a moment and countless other times. If that isn't a sign of an evil power at work, I don't know what is, because it has happened so many times within a few months for it to just be a coincidence.

As for other stuff about prayer, look at this link. http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html

It shows evidence that Christian prayer does have an effect.

I also ask, how am I infringing on the beliefs of others? By telling them what I beleive? So is a person talking about politics to a person that doesn't beleive the same infringing on their beliefs? Is someone who thinks their sports team is better and saying that to a fan of another team infringing on their beliefs?

It is no more infringing that those situations. Its not like I am forcing you to listen to me or any thing else. You can leave or not think about it as you want. Christians who try to force it upon them and show anger or judgement on are wrong in that regard, because Jude 22 says 'Be merciful to those who doubt." BTW, because Christians make mistakes doesn't invalidate Christianity, becasue the Bible says even Christians will still sin.

You foremost do not know if atheists, muslims, buddhists or anybody else are wrong in their beliefs and that you are right. So lets keep it at that. That is why I am a weak atheist, and haven't gone the full way to being a stronger one. [/B]

Nor do you know the same thing. None of us know with 100% certainity. However, there is a right answer(in otherwords an absolute truth) and from everything I have seen Christianity is the correct path. I could explain this further, if you would wish, but I believe in a God, and since I believe in a God, then I would beleive he would only have one path, if he were to "advertise" it to the people of the world, which I beleive he has. Even if that is not true, but he would not mislead people and Christianity is a path, it would be the only path becasue Jesus says he is THE way, not a way.

This is not coming from a person who has been in church his whole life. I am former atheist/weak agnostic who is very logical, therefore faith is tough for me. That is a curse though, becasue God looks well upon those who have more faithfulness and less proof than the ones who believe but have less faith and more proof.

I would challenge every skeptic to visit http://www.godandscience.org. Not every Christian is an anti-science person(matter of fact most aren't). That site has a load of facts to look upon.

 

[quantum4]

I disagree entirely and in every statement you have made. It does not matter what you think but you are not changing my opinion or beliefs. I may be a weak atheist, but I am sticking to that. So please spare me. And most of your evidence sounds like a lot like luck and coincidence. Sin this, sin that. Give me a break. then you give me this link telling me to change my beliefs. I am sorry but there is no evidence to prove that there is a god. Furthermore it does not in my mind make sense for there to be one. God and science DO NOT CONNECT in any way and are not related.

You have no right to tell me what is wrong or right. I infact think I might be bi myself. There is nothing wrong with that. Some people think differently than you. It IS NOT NECESSARY to go out in full force mocking them with all the artillery (or whatever you would call it) that you got. This is not like that at all. I believe in no god as there is no proof for one and it just doesn't make sense. I have had miracles done before for me. For example when I was visiting Peru I got between a police fire fight and was almost killed. But this has nothing to do with god. Rather with luck and survival. There is no evidence to prove what you are saying and your site link is nothing more than arbitrary in what it claims as fact.

NEVER EVER SAY YOU HAVE EVIDENCE. I even admit there is no evidence for this subject.

Furthermore to shorten my post in one conclusive smiliey:

 

[Owen]

Originally posted by quantum4
I disagree entirely and in every statement you have made. It does not matter what you think but you are not changing my opinion or beliefs. I may be a weak atheist, but I am sticking to that. So please spare me. And most of your evidence sounds like a lot like luck and coincidence. Sin this, sin that. Give me a break. then you give me this link telling me to change my beliefs. I am sorry but there is no evidence to prove that there is a god. Furthermore it does not in my mind make sense for there to be one. God and science DO NOT CONNECT in any way and are not related.

Furthermore to shorten my post in one conclusive smiliey:

If God and Science do not connect, then there must be a way science disproves there is a God. Show me how it does. Show me how they do not connect. Simply saying it doens't make it so. The idea that God and Science are opposites is an unsupported idea fed by many people who despise religion(mainly Christianity).

I also ask you this. Why, if you beleive there isn't a god, would it hurt to check out a website? Surely if your beliefs are firmly established, it won't hurt to check it out. However, if you beliefs aren't firm, why is it wrong to check out the website. Are you going to restrict yourself to information from only one side of the argument?

BTW, you may disagree with what I said, but that is because we are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Also, may I ask why did you get insulted by my post and seem to try to insult me in return?

Let me also ask you something. Do you believe in any abosolute moral truths? Any whatsoever, such as no murdering or stealing?

 

[quantum4]

Originally posted by Owen
If God and Science do not connect, then there must be a way science disproves there is a God. Show me how it does. Show me how they do not connect. Simply saying it doens't make it so. The idea that God and Science are opposites is an unsupported idea fed by many people who despise religion(mainly Christianity).

I don't know and don't have anything to show. Just stating my opinion as you did. Prove they connect.. fact is you can't.

I also ask you this. Why, if you beleive there isn't a god, would it hurt to check out a website? Surely if your beliefs are firmly established, it won't hurt to check it out. However, if you beliefs aren't firm, why is it wrong to check out the website.

Computer is rather unstable.. have to watch how many windows I got open... will have to check tomorrow.

Are you going to restrict yourself to information from only one side of the argument?

Absolutely not.

BTW, you may disagree with what I said, but that is because we are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

Also, may I ask why did you get insulted by my post and seem to try to insult me in return? [/B]

Lets agree to disagree.

I insulted you? If it seem like I did, I am very sorry for it. I never intended to harm you in any way. I am a rather soft spoken individual if you get to meet me.

 

[Owen]

I don't know and don't have anything to show. Just stating my opinion as you did. Prove they connect.. fact is you can't.

I gave you a website which links God and Science. I have brought up evidence to support me belief.

Computer is rather unstable.. have to watch how many windows I got open... will have to check tomorrow.

And I hope you will.

Lets agree to disagree

I will agree with you that you don't think as I do. That said, if I see something that I find not true about God, then I may decide to speak up, because I want what I have seen to be the truth out there. I won't force it anyone though.

I insulted you? If it seem like I did, I am very sorry for it. I never intended to harm you in any way. I am a rather soft spoken individual if you get to meet me. [/B]

I was not insulted personally, but it seemed like you were trying to insult in some manner, especially with the sarcastic smiley.

Again I ask you since you may not get my edit from my previous post, do you beleive in any absolute moral truths whatsoever?

 

[quantum4]

Originally posted by Owen
I gave you a website which links God and Science. I have brought up evidence to support me belief.

Actually you cannot connect the two. I am not saying they are opposites... but they cannot be connected.

I will agree with you that you don't think as I do. That said, if I see something that I find not true about God, then I may decide to speak up, because I want what I have seen to be the truth out there. I won't force it anyone though.

Truth? Be careful how you use that word. You have offended me.

I was not insulted personally, but it seemed like you were trying to insult in some manner, especially with the sarcastic smiley.

I should of not done that.

Again I ask you since you may not get my edit from my previous post, do you beleive in any absolute moral truths whatsoever?

I am a person of strong morals, doesn't have to make me religious.

 

[Owen]

Actually you cannot connect the two. I am not saying they are opposites... but they cannot be connected.

Why can they not? While science can neither disprove or prove God, God can prove science.

Truth? Be careful how you use that word. You have offended me.

I say that as to what I beleive the truth to be. I am going to be honest in saying I don't beleive there is another version of the truth(in regards to Jesus Christ and God), so when I say that, I am coming from that perspective

I am a person of strong morals, doesn't have to make me religious.

I wasn't asking that though. I am simply asking do you beleive in any absolute moral truths.

 

[quantum4]

Okay I got off my bottom and searched for evidence supporting me:

http://www.faginfamily.net/barry/Papers/id.htm

"Long before science was discovered, wise theologians knew that the existence of God must be taken on faith. Today, many religious thinkers counsel that science can reveal the glory of God, but can never prove or disprove his existence. This advice, sadly, is still not heeded in Colorado Springs.

The latest in a long, anguished line of attempts to connect science with God is “Intelligent Design” theory. That it can be proposed as a “scientific” theory worthy of serious consideration is testimony to how ingrained such attempts must be in human consciousness. In 4,000 years of monotheism, have we learned nothing?"

http://www.math.uwaterloo.ca/~shallit/plimer.html

"My personal library contains about a dozen volumes exposing the fallacies behind creation "science", many of them excellent. Among the best are Arthur Strahler's superb Science and Earth History, Laurie Godfrey's collection Scientists Confront Creationism, and Philip Kitcher's Abusing Science."

******

I was looking at the link above seeing those books.. I might buy them...

 

[quantum4]

Originally posted by Owen
Why can they not? While science can neither disprove or prove God, God can prove science.

Actually god can't prove science.

I say that as to what I beleive the truth to be. I am going to be honest in saying I don't beleive there is another version of the truth(in regards to Jesus Christ and God), so when I say that, I am coming from that perspective

Fine. Just don't seem so condescending on others.

I wasn't asking that though. I am simply asking do you beleive in any absolute moral truths.

Like no murder or no stealing? In that regard yes.

Another link backing me up;

http://net-burst.net/hot/scie.htm - STUNNING!

 

[Owen]

Actually god can't prove science.

ACtaully, I should have said God is the answer to science. Here is why. The law of cause and effect. The universe is made up of matter. In our universe there is a law that says that matter(or energy) can neither be created or destroyed(don't ask me the specific name of that law). The universe has not qualities of self-creation, but rather just expansion of matter(if the Big Bang theory is true).

Therefore, for matter to exist, there has to be a cause, since matter can not be created. If matter is created out of nothing, then it creates a law that matter is not created, which is impossible. If a law that matter is not created is started first, then matter can not be created. There must be a previous cause. Also, with the law of Cause and Effect, there is alway a first cause. The only logical conclusion is that there is a higher entity, which we will call God, that created the universe and the laws of it at the same time.

You may ask, where did God come from, but two things. First of all, we have very little evidence about the nature of God and his being, besides what religion could be, but doesn't explain God so much as what he sees at righteous. Second of all, there must be a previous cause since the universe has not shown any capablity of being a first cause.

Fine. Just don't seem so condescending on others.

I would not view myself as superior. I just have seen things that others haven't. Its like saying you know what Hawaii is like and I don't, because you have seen it and I haven't.

Like no murder or no stealing? In that regard yes. [/B]

Then I ask you, what decides absolute moral truths?