HOW TO: How No Limit Hosting Is Possible - CWahi.Net's Setup

[crosswinds]

Don't get me wrong here but in my own mind unlimited disk space does not exist.

If you equate unlimited with infinite - I 100% agree. If, like CNR has pointed out, you equate it with no limits, it is 100% possible especially given the size of todays disks.

The bandwidth alone is not unlimited. Now perhaps a better term to use would be unmeaterd. That is possible in the sense that you don't put a restriction on any one user.

Yes, that is exactly how we are applying it. The bad side is that many, MANY people have abused the term and you guys are against it - and rightly so IMO.

But tell me this. If you offer "Unlimited" space and I was to come along and decide to use your service to backup every computer I own along with all my servers to your network. And fill up around 2tb of space. Your not gonna kick my --- to the curb?

If you are on the base free package - yes. Storage sites are not permitted because we have had people "back up" installs of games, etc and then serve them out to friends. That is spelled out clearly in the TOS.

I am working on an earnable/paid tier (the earnable system needs to be put in place but it's possible to earn credits by having a busy site to get upgrades for free) which explicitly allow storage/backup sites and then you'd be allowed to upload/download your files from a private interface - one that prevents others from accessing your files to avoid the whole 'distribution' and 'making available' that institutions like the RIAA like to use.

Even if the copyright files are not legal and you don't allow them. How are you going to stop people from uploading them?

pure-ftpd has an option to allow you to pass the uploaded file to a script. Over the past 11 years I have built up a script and signature file (using file names, crcs, etc), and based on file type (recursing into rar/zips) that score the upload. If it scores too high, it gets logged so that a human can review it.

So we don't stop the upload but we do review it and remove it or not.

If you offer unlimited space you are bound to get some pre-teen noobs that upload anything they want and don't care. And chances are 99% of the time you wont know the copyright files are even there. I mean how can you keep track if you have 40 some odd servers?

We get that every day! Right now it's only about 10 or 15 accounts but in the original free heyday, it was upwards of 500 or so. One person worked full time to police it.

We are not structured like a standard cPanel/[someother]Panel setup where 1 account is on one server. Free has 20 servers, each fulfilling a particular role working together as 1 system. The number of file servers is much lower (4). The scripts are installed there - keeping it manageable and the scoring logs are sent to and combined into one on an admin system that our policer checks.

If it was truly unlimited why would you have to keep buying more? Its unlimited servers right?

That is if you equate unlimited with infinite. That does not exist. Since our goal is to always provide more than all the users consume, buying is mandatory.

And eventually even if you only keep the servers at 66% load they are going to get oversold and something will go wrong.

66% is the max we reach. Hardware is purchased before then, specifically to avoid overselling. Given the way I map users into server groups (notice not a single server) I can even move/replicate user sites to new server groups/colos/countries without them noticing and keep expanding, should our existing colo's not be able to provide.

It requires diligence and the willingness to spend money to keep people happy - exactly the same the majority of hosters here provide.

I realize I probably skipped around in this post quite a bit but its 5:30am and I am tired. I also realize some of you [mainly the op] will feel the need to -rep me for voicing my opinion.

-rep? Never - I thank you for questioning me and being civil! I 100% believe in free and open speech, so long as it does not tread on the grounds of hate/slander.

Your posts/questions make me think and answer, hopefully in a way that clears things up.

 

[iBrightDev]

Ok. Each server you have has a limit right? If you agree with that, then you will agree with this:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS UNLIMITED!!!!! STOP TELLING YOUR CUSTOMERS WHO PAY YOU LOADS OF MONEY LIES!!!!

word to yo motha hombre

 

[crosswinds]

Lots of data transfer requires alot of CPU and RAM use!

Actually, with FreeBSD and the kqueue system (an asynchronous event thinger), data transfers require very little. I can saturate a Gbps link with about 10% of one cpu with the current structure. FreeBSD also uses sendfile so the data goes direct from disk -> NIC buffers. Front end connection cache servers prevent a slow connection from bogging down everyone else and having more of them allows for more connections than is possible with a single server. Every system is at least 2 cpu or more.

My 2 biggest issues are php scripts and database resources.

Someone using Drupal, for example - and getting lots of hits can use a lot of the php processing servers. Someone hand coding a little site that isn't familiar with SQL can write very slow routines that bog down the servers.

I try to mitigate the php issue by using multiple processing servers (this was one of the key reasons for server groups), php bytecode caching (eaccelerator) and I analyze the mysql slow logs to find and fix bad sql. Often I end up rewriting routines and adding indexes for the customer to make their site much faster.

 

[iBrightDev]

dude, you can seriously try to justify it any way you want, there is no such thing as unlimited. when your hosting company goes under, we will all be here to say "i told you so"

 

[crosswinds]

dude, you can seriously try to justify it any way you want, there is no such thing as unlimited.

Based on this argument - everyone offering the "unlimited features" in their hosting packages (email accounts, ftp accounts, databases) are now guilty of the same thing.

Every one of those require resources to track and maintain - cPanel puts them on disk - in the users account/or in /var/cpanel, or /etc This uses up more of their assigned disk quota/disk inodes (inodes is not something most people think about) and hence, they are limited.

So by claiming unlimited does not exist and yet offering it...

I was politely ignoring that irony until now

when your hosting company goes under, we will all be here to say "i told you so"

If it does go under then I absolutely deserve it!

 

[Darknight]

based on this argument - everyone offering the "unlimited features" in their hosting packages (email accounts, ftp accounts, databases) are now guilty of the same thing.

oh snap.

 

[fnixws]

But if some guy comes along "CLAIMING" to have 40 servers on the go, does it, he gets praised.

He turned up here about a 3 months ago, claiming to be the ex owner of a failed host from back in the day. All of a sudden within 3 month, this guy claims to have obtained 40+ servers and be generating the resources to pay for them. Seems suspicious thats for certian.

Especially since someone with such a large amount of resources, and a large company with 40+ servers to manage would have no need, nor the time to be hanging around here.
Nor would they bother defending their position or attempting to justify their situation to other small time hosts like most of us here.

I must say, it seems like huge load of BS to me.
I could be wrong, and if i am, then thats ok with me and i appologise now, but even Crosswinds himself should be abel to see that from the outside point of view, it seems like a load of BS.

No trying to offend you here BTW CW.

Actually, with FreeBSD and the kqueue system (an asynchronous event thinger), data transfers require very little. I can saturate a Gbps link with about 10% of one cpu with the current structure. FreeBSD also uses sendfile so the data goes direct from disk -> NIC buffers. Front end connection cache servers prevent a slow connection from bogging down everyone else and having more of them allows for more connections than is possible with a single server. Every system is at least 2 cpu or more.

So if i sign up for a $11 account and use it to host a Popular Game company site and as a Mirror for all the releases (wich are free to download). Transfering 2 - 5 tb a month, you wont find an excuse to turn me off? The entire site is simple HTML, so its no resource hog.

Based on this argument - everyone offering the "unlimited features" in their hosting packages (email accounts, ftp accounts, databases) are now guilty of the same thing.

Yes and no.
These are only limited by your other limit of Disk space.
So they are unlimited so long as you dont go over your disk quota.

All this comes down to is technicalities.
Really, they should be called Unmetered to stop the controversy.
Unmetered just means you dont measure the traffic (altho we do) with out pretending you have unlimited resources.

 

[Volt.Networks]

Well, he did not say that he has unlimited servers or unlimited resources to give away. He just says that his users can use his services without limits, which is unlimited. Isn't without limits unlimited?

I agreed with Dan up until I read this post. If you advertise that you do not limit your users' resources, then technically, you offer them "unlimited" resources. However, you yourself do not have unlimited resources. You have a limit. What you have are scalable resources. You scale up as necessary but it is not unlimited. Servers cost money and I doubt you have an unlimited supply of money.

This is kind of like how people compare "unmetered" and "unlimited"

 

[Dynash]

Did anyone read CnR's post?

Unlimited 3
Definition: Unconfined; not restrained; unrestricted

unlimited 4
Definition: that cannot be entirely consumed or used up; "an inexhaustible supply of coal"

Unlimited 1
Definition: Not limited; having no bounds; boundless; as, an unlimited expanse of ocean.

The word was never meant as "never ending" more of a term to describe No limits or a way to get passed current limits.

That is exactly what CW does, he expands on his current structure when need be. Just like HostGator does - though they limit everyone more than CW does.

 

[Dan]

Ok. I am going to try something in a week or so.
I am going to offer hosting with Unlimited Space and Unlimited Transfer with Limited Resources and see how it goes. Chances are I will be used as a mop.

 

[crosswinds]

He turned up here about a 3 months ago, claiming to be the ex owner of a failed host from back in the day. All of a sudden within 3 month, this guy claims to have obtained 40+ servers and be generating the resources to pay for them. Seems suspicious thats for certian.

Actually the reason I am even here is that someone posted we are relaunching free (CWahi), someone wondered why/how/is it BS, etc and a posted a response (thread was titled 'The Original Free Web Provider Is Back" - or something like that). The I started to look around and I like this little community. I try to be helpful, help people avoid pitfalls etc.

I could be wrong, and if i am, then thats ok with me and i appologise now, but even Crosswinds himself should be abel to see that from the outside point of view, it seems like a load of BS.

That never even occured to me, but Crosswinds is a Canadian corporation. You can look it up, and all the details. Crosswinds Internet Communications Inc. Federally (Canadian) incorporated in Oct, 1997. I'm the sole director atm (Tony Holmes). I have always been on the corporate documents as a matter of public record. Both the Crosswinds and CWahi domains are owned and hosted on Crosswinds (.Net)

No trying to offend you here BTW CW.

None taken. You are quite civil in your statements - something I applaud.

So if i sign up for a $11 account and use it to host a Popular Game company site and as a Mirror for all the releases (wich are free to download). Transfering 2 - 5 tb a month, you wont find an excuse to turn me off? The entire site is simple HTML, so its no resource hog.

Absolutely! Unless you violate some copyright laws or we get a DMCA takedown notice, why would we? You are *paying* us to host you.

The structure of CWahi.Net is the free hosting however, just FYI.

These are only limited by your other limit of Disk space. So they are unlimited so long as you dont go over your disk quota.

I strongly disagree based on how the others classify 'unlimited'.

Based on what Dan et al are saying Unlimited is impossible and does not exist - they need to hold themselves to the same standard they hold others. They are taking it from the position of meaning 'infinite'. They are now selectively using unlimited to mean 'no limit - as long as you don't exceed your quota'. A tad bit hyprocritical, no?

But even still, since most of the features represent real disk space consumed, and a limit is imposed,it is therefore limited and we can even come up with a number.

Assume a user signs up for Dan's (DesieHost.Com) Gold account. 5GB, unlimited email addresses. Lets say the only want to use it for email. So they create as many email addresses as they can and lets ignore all other file space. I can ignore the password file - I will assume his /etc is big enough to hold them all. I will also assume no email gets delivered for the most number of emails possible.

Each directory in the mail folder in their cPanel account requires 1 inode. 1 inode takes 512bytes (even in ext3/ext2/ufs/reiser/other filesystem). 5GB / 512bytes = 10 million. That is not unlimited. It is big yes and very few services have that many, but it is not unlimited.

Now for a realistic number. The biggest issue I find is when a cPanel customer creates an email account, they don't understand it's in their quota and they leave the default of 10MB (too small usually). 5GB / 10MB = 512 email addresses. Much smaller number and this is exluding html files, logs, tmp data - all the crap that cPanel stores in their account.

I don't mean to single Dan out excessively - he's just been the most vocal about this. I see how much good he does in the forums.

Really, they should be called Unmetered to stop the controversy. Unmetered just means you dont measure the traffic (altho we do) with out pretending you have unlimited resources.

I can 100% agree with you there. I've even considered renaming all the "unlimited" to either "no limit" or "unmetered" or even "more than you need".
The problem is, to this day Crosswinds still ranks #5-7 or so on google for "Free Unlimited Web Hosting" due to it's roots. Losing the traffic/signups from that would kill off growth - mostly in the free service, new paid signups have dropped off significantly - making scaling very painful.

I never ever have claimed to have limitless resources. I only claim to be able to ensure I can stay ahead of the growth curve in revenue to provide more capacity that is needed - that is the beginning and end of it.

Volt.Networks - you state it well. My issue it to ensure my revenue exceeds my costs as I scale up, to always make supply exceed demand. As you scale up, costs go down. My structure essentially tears apart the components that most would classify as a single server and pulls them out into groups of server, with the network replacing the PCI bus, cpu sockets, memory, etc.

 

[crosswinds]

Ok. I am going to try something in a week or so.
I am going to offer hosting with Unlimited Space and Unlimited Transfer with Limited Resources and see how it goes. Chances are I will be used as a mop.

Actually, I have had a serious decrease in signups since about April. We removed the limits to try to save some of our customers money (they lost jobs, for example). Even with the removal of quotas and b/w limits, our signup rates are trickling off.

I expect you'll find the same thing - and go for it, seriously.

I expect that you'll not see any changes. We don't meter disk and bandwidth, however, you can host 1 domain (included with the account) and park 3 more. That puts a serious dampener on abuse and removes the worries of overage fees from your members.

The people that tend to exploit don't want to outlay money and if your Cc processor is worth their salt, you'll handily filter out the fraud (nigerians, vietnam are my 2 biggest sources). The scammers are looking to use a stolen CC or even their own, get a reseller/VPS/dedicated server that allows unlimited domains to be hosted, and exploit.

 

[fnixws]

I can 100% agree with you there. I've even considered renaming all the "unlimited" to either "no limit" or "unmetered" or even "more than you need".
The problem is, to this day Crosswinds still ranks #5-7 or so on google for "Free Unlimited Web Hosting" due to it's roots. Losing the traffic/signups from that would kill off growth - mostly in the free service, new paid signups have dropped off significantly - making scaling very painful.

I just assumed this thread sprung up over your advertisment posts here being removed and you being infracted by Dan, am i right?

I dont think theres a rule that your site cant still say Unlimited (correct me if im wrong), but it is a rule that you forum advertisment cant, wich is where you should find another way to say it so you arent breaking the rules. Unfortunatly unmetered is also not allowed, so perhaps use a number calculated by my 1/2 assed formular from earlier: TranferLimit = (MaximumTransferSpeed @ MaxAllowedCPUnRAMuseage) X 1Month.

Site stays the same, search engine ranking barely effected, mods happy. Everyone wins!

 

[crosswinds]

I just assumed this thread sprung up over your advertisment posts here being removed and you being infracted by Dan, am i right?

Actually no. I made THAT mistake the first week I was here and didn't completely read the TOS. Matt infracted me - I actually caught my mistake and wanted to recant/delete my posts and then saw the infractions.

Forum n00b mistake.

This thread sprang up from the next thread "Wanting to start a free hosting company" - you can read it http://70.85.114.235/forums/showthread.php?t=2204772

I dont think theres a rule that your site cant still say Unlimited (correct me if im wrong), but it is a rule that you forum advertisment cant, wich is where you should find another way to say it so you arent breaking the rules.

I verified my sig is okay and haven't bothered to advertise in these forums. That's not why I am here. I am here to help out where I can, give tips and help people monetize their sites (check my post today on Ad Revenue -> Bravenet and Error pages. I have been using the error page monetization for the past few months and the eCPM for not having to do it yourself is awesome - *IF* you get decent error page traffic).

In this way, having some people abuse your service and get terminated ends up being a net win as their traffic now hits monetized page - the abusers end up supporting the service. Ironic, no?

Site stays the same, search engine ranking barely effected, mods happy. Everyone wins!

I haven't and won't advertise beyond my sig. I have had a couple people from the forums join the free service (partially, I think, to check out the BS factor) and that's good enough.

Heck, I'm killing off the references in my sig and wouldn't mind even having all references to my domains removed.

 

[JonnyH]

Here's my views on the opinion. Keep in mind crosswinds, if any comments I make below seem offensive to you, they're not made to be taken in that nature. They're merely constructive criticism.

From my point of view, and the little to 2 years experience I have in this area. The system and network you have in place to sub stand this daunting "unlimited" task is amazing it simply is. It seems like you've spent much time and effort to get this up and running with the minimum benefits. Why you do it, bypasses me.

From my client point of view. The most I want in the free hosting world IS reliability. I've been battered and bruced by lost data, downtime and slow loads. So, I see your advert, look interested and click on your website. Obviously, for the amature of the hosting world, the UNLIMITED is a big fish hook one I'm certainly going to grab if shown in the right way.

The website loads. I'm granted and welcomed by a mix and match of colours, makes my eyes soar and my expectations now have sank, and my feel for you being reliable has certainly dropped. A low compressed JPG logo badly laid out website and NO evidence at all to your superb infrastructure. It's full of cheesy images portraying a total different message than you want it to. With all this money to keep a cluster like that going, surely you would put the little money aside for a truely proffesional and sleek website that will show you off as a true webhosting company? The only proof I see for your success is one little "decade" something that not even a potential client might even read. Your website system is poorly set out, laid with ads and "partner" websites. By this time, I look down and the package and see no colour, slaps of bold a table. I'm officially turned off.

What you need. You need to DEFINATELY revamp your whole website. Incorporate a community, if you've got so many clients, set up a forum. One that doesn't need a username and password to get it. When I was looking for free space, one of the first things I did was check the comments for other CLIENTS views. If they was good with no trouble, I'd sign up. With you, I can't do that, I would of closed the tab down. You need to EMPHASIS your huge clusters and whatnots, you need to show that you've been running for 11 years. You need to show that on an efficent laid out sleek looking website. You need to set up a community and mass mail, get that started. A free webhost without it's community is like bread without its butter.

In conclusion, while complimenting you on your system, which if true, is superb. You need to portray that across to the user. In free webhosting, usually judging the book by it's cover is true. Maybe not in your case, but the average joe will think that and close it down. So you need to:

• Invest in a sleek, modern webdesign
• EXPLAIN your beautiful success
• SHOW you have reliability
• PROOVE that you have a beautiful structure

My views.. have been shown. Regarding the unlimited hook, it will run out eventually and would be taken by the webhost industry alot better if you used "unmetered" instead. Still though, I don't like unlimited or unmetered. It's just not right, at all.

Thanks & Good Luck,
Jonny

 

[hamster]

Tsk... what we need to do is to invent a word that's a hybrid of unmetered and unlimited... something that describes that you are not limited to what you can use, but what you use is monitored.

 

[crosswinds]

The website loads. I'm granted and welcomed by a mix and match of colours, makes my eyes soar and my expectations now have sank, and my feel for you being reliable has certainly dropped. A low compressed JPG logo badly laid out website and NO evidence at all to your superb infrastructure.

I 100% agree on the layout (when you log in). I'm technical - very technical, and extremely bad graphically. I can't draw a stick figure to save my life!

The template was designed by a professional based on information we gave. The theme is "community, with a polynesian-like feel". This is based on the original CW concept. Even the logo is based on the original. Low res jpeg? Of course - loading speed is paramount as long as the logo renders decent.

Some like it, some hate it - you're in the latter. No offense taken. I really *DO* wish I could please everyone, but it's not possible.

Incorporate a community, if you've got so many clients, set up a forum. One that doesn't need a username and password to get it. When I was looking for free space, one of the first things I did was check the comments for other CLIENTS views.

I just need to make the forums public and link them The forum is the heart of our communication. I think that's an excellent idea. One thing we don't do, however, is force people to use or communicate in it. We don't force people to do anything! Also the heart of our philosophy.

You need to EMPHASIS your huge clusters and whatnots, you need to show that you've been running for 11 years.

For people like you, absolutely! You want/need the assurance. Most of the people just don't care. We analyze our traffic flows - only a small % remain on the main page for more than a few seconds - just enough time to find the sign up link or leave.

So possibly you are correct - they judge it by it's look and go 'ugh' and leave.

My views.. have been shown. Regarding the unlimited hook, it will run out eventually

We expect that you are right. Our marketting centers around our established keywords "free unlimited web hosting" and building up "free web hosting". Right now, the former is still growing and brings in over 60% of our search engine traffic (mostly google). The latter is down around 10% - we need to build up that relevance.

Thanks for taking the time to present your thoughts clearly and investigating our site.

Wow, I just took a closer look at our logo - I see jaggies! I gotta get that fixed - thanks for the comment on that

 

[crosswinds]

Tsk... what we need to do is to invent a word that's a hybrid of unmetered and unlimited... something that describes that you are not limited to what you can use, but what you use is monitored.

unmonlimited? monlimited? foobared?



Well whatever the case, until we've been up another 5 years sustainably, with a happy community, no minds here will be swayed. Heck not even in 5 years.

 

[Dan]

crosswinds,

I would really love an detailed look at how you did what you did and would like to speak with you in private about this if possible.
Do you have MSN?

 

[crosswinds]

Yes I do (need to install pidgin on this laptop). I'll PM you my details and it appears we're both up now